HHO gas discussion

PSYKOSTEVO · Jun 4, 2008

Hey guys, I recently read a little bit about creating your own HHO (hydrogen gas generator) as a supplemental fuel for a car. I have seen back and forth debates on whether it works or not, and I'm not so worried about whether it does, because I still won't believe it until I see it, but I am willing to TRY it out.

What I am asking is: "Does anyone here have it installed on their car?"

If so, pics please and some further info, as well as your experiences.

If not, then if you know a little about post up what you know.

jerzeykilla · Jun 8, 2008

well...you will probably never see out mustangs running on hydrogen for many reasons...one reason is how to deliver it, you can have a hydrogen tank, which is fine untill you get into an accident, then it becomes a bomb which will kill you and everyone around you. So then you look at Electrolysis, which is the extracting of hydrogen and oxygen from water using an electric current passing though. Method works great, i've tried it, but then you think, how much hydrogen you would need, ive done the math and its absoltuly ridiculous. So most people run cars on gas, with a hydrogen booster so they can use less gasoline and get much better fuel economy. hope this helps

Hoboattacker · Jun 8, 2008

Gasoline could become a "bomb" also if hit right and ignited. Just like hydrogen. That's not a very valid argument. With the right safety precautions and how well cars are made now they could protect where it is stored.

The argument that needs to be made is how the hell do you make hydrogen? Contrary to popular belief, hydrogen DOES NOT exist naturally on this planet by itself. Hydrogen is too light and escapes Earth's gravitational field very easily (escape velocity is higher than the pull of gravity). The easiest way to get hydrogen is through natural gas and is actually a little bit more expensive than gasoline is currently. In the near future it will probably be a little less expensive but it is not currently.

In my opinion and through a little research of my own, the best option is to use natural gas as an alternative source of fuel. We have it naturally here in the US (a lot of it, too) and it could easily be used as fuel. The only problem is transportation through pipelines and how do you carry it on the car (easily solve-able if you put a few scientists on it). It does not solve our dependency on fossil fuels, but it does help us solve our dependency on foreign oil in a short term way.

'06 stang · Jun 8, 2008

I can't help thinking of mushroom clouds when I think of Hydorgen. I will take my chances and stick with the old tried and true 93 octane dino gas.

PSYKOSTEVO · Jun 9, 2008

Well I am trying to build a electrolysis hydrogen kit with the magazine I work for. We don't know if it works, because I refuse to believe it until I see it. I understand the science behind it, but theory and practice are two different things usually. From our research we are thinking of building a ~64oz container with sandwiched plates to pass currents through as many molecules as possible. This has proven to be the most efficient creator of hydrogen from water. And since we are talking about tap water and simple catylists, it's no big deal to change out at every tank or so. If it works, that'd be awesome.....there are a lot of people out there claiming upwards of 25-50% increase (No mustangs that I know of), if it doesn't work, then atleast I will know and hopefully not end up looking like a retard.

gtss · Jun 9, 2008

with regards to Natural Gas, we have a number of vehicles around here currently operating on Natural Gas. there are systems out there and they work.
the main reason for a lack of main stream use is a lack of range.
To the best of my knowlege the only way to carry it is in pressurized cylinders, so you wind up the the entire trunk filled with cylinders and even at that you don't hve the same range as a factory gas tank.
That is part of the reason that Propane gained popularity in the 70,s and 80's. it could be stored in a pressurized tank as a liquid (LPG)

I like the hydrogen concept. if you can make it work let me know. I have always had this belief that you could build a car that would never run out of fuel and the fuel would be water.
Seperate the water, burn the hydrogen, assuming complete combustion--
H + O2 + heat = H20 I'm not sure if that is the correct stoichiometric formula but it sure sounds good.....

Good luck I hope it works out

PSYKOSTEVO · Jun 10, 2008

Well I JUST got the news that our develpoment crew finished the Hydrogen Converter........... It's time to hold our breath and see what it does. I think we might be able to install it tonight. Pics too of course. I don't know what it looks like yet, but I'm sure it looks like crap.

stangdude2000 · Jun 10, 2008

If you are generating hydrogen through electrolysis, it takes more energy to perform the electrolysis than you get from burning the hydrogen. Electrolysis is not going to be a viable option for vehicles, beyond a slight possibility of making some type of hybrid. The electrolysis would need to be done using "waste" energy, such as energy from braking or generated using the excess heat from the engine, or something along those lines. No matter what, the system would likely weigh far too much to have any useful purpose. Although as technology changes and gets better... who knows.

Also, a "did you know": according to recent studies by BP, 2/3 of our oil supply comes from North America (including Mexico). We have a lot less dependancy on "foreign" oil (people typically refer to foreign oil as oil from OPEC countries - Middle East/Venezuela) than most people believe.

PSYKOSTEVO · Jun 10, 2008

stangdude2000 said:
If you are generating hydrogen through electrolysis, it takes more energy to perform the electrolysis than you get from burning the hydrogen. Electrolysis is not going to be a viable option for vehicles, beyond a slight possibility of making some type of hybrid. The electrolysis would need to be done using "waste" energy, such as energy from braking or generated using the excess heat from the engine, or something along those lines. No matter what, the system would likely weigh far too much to have any useful purpose. Although as technology changes and gets better... who knows.

Also, a "did you know": according to recent studies by BP, 2/3 of our oil supply comes from North America (including Mexico). We have a lot less dependancy on "foreign" oil (people typically refer to foreign oil as oil from OPEC countries - Middle East/Venezuela) than most people believe.

Umm, What type of power do you think this thing takes? I'm not running a Mr. Fusion. And this is a "supplemental" energy system. We are trying it for the sake of testing it because it has a lot of internet popularity and we want to educate our magazine readers on it. As it looks, the system will weight ~15lbs wet, and that's because we are now looking at about a full gallon tank in a 2 foot long aparatus. It is purposely built big, because we want to make sure that we see as dramatic of a result as possible. We don't want to plug it in and then go "Well we MIGHT have gained 1mpg or so." If it doesn't work we will find out fast. And a kit that large should provide significant gains in the 5-10mpg range. I already drive my car to the highest MPG I expect to get as is.

Fett · Jun 10, 2008

stangdude2000 said:
Also, a "did you know": according to recent studies by BP, 2/3 of our oil supply comes from North America (including Mexico). We have a lot less dependancy on "foreign" oil (people typically refer to foreign oil as oil from OPEC countries - Middle East/Venezuela) than most people believe.

The majority of our imported oil actually comes from Canada. However, just because we don't buy the majority of it from OPEC countries, doesn't mean the price of oil isn't effected by it. The price of oil is the price of oil, no matter where it comes from. So if OPEC is manipulating the numbers, it still drives up the overall price, even for the stuff that comes out of US soil.

stangdude2000 · Jun 10, 2008

PSYKOSTEVO said:
Umm, What type of power do you think this thing takes? I'm not running a Mr. Fusion. And this is a "supplemental" energy system. We are trying it for the sake of testing it because it has a lot of internet popularity and we want to educate our magazine readers on it. As it looks, the system will weight ~15lbs wet, and that's because we are now looking at about a full gallon tank in a 2 foot long aparatus. It is purposely built big, because we want to make sure that we see as dramatic of a result as possible. We don't want to plug it in and then go "Well we MIGHT have gained 1mpg or so." If it doesn't work we will find out fast. And a kit that large should provide significant gains in the 5-10mpg range. I already drive my car to the highest MPG I expect to get as is.

How is a kit like the one that is being installed powered? Directly from the battery? In such a seemingly simple bolt-on system (from what you explained), there is no way it could use energy generated from the braking system or waste heat. There is a guy in my parents' neighborhood that bought into one of those scams and actually saw a reduction in gas mileage. My guess is that its a part a result of the extra draw on the battery (making the alternator work harder) and part that the computer had no idea what to make of the new fuel mixture.

Think of it this way - if a kit like that were able to return those kinds of gains, manufacturers would use it, or a variation of it.

stangdude2000 · Jun 10, 2008

Fett said:
The majority of our imported oil actually comes from Canada. However, just because we don't buy the majority of it from OPEC countries, doesn't mean the price of oil isn't effected by it. The price of oil is the price of oil, no matter where it comes from. So if OPEC is manipulating the numbers, it still drives up the overall price, even for the stuff that comes out of US soil.

Very true. I wasn't trying to say they do not have an effect - I was just pointing out something that most people are aware of.

klaw · Jun 11, 2008

Fett said:
... The price of oil is the price of oil, no matter where it comes from. ...

I would disagree.

The price of oil from Canada (for example) is the price of the oil. The price of oil from the middle east is the price of the oil plus the price of the foreign policy impact of trying to secure that oil supply and secure ourselves from the risks posed by enriching countries whose citizens don't have the same respect for life and liberty that we have.

The first source of oil we only pay for at the pump. The second source of oil we pay for at the pump, at tax time, and in all too many cases - with the lives of our sons and daughters.

PSYKOSTEVO · Jun 11, 2008

stangdude2000 said:
How is a kit like the one that is being installed powered? Directly from the battery? In such a seemingly simple bolt-on system (from what you explained), there is no way it could use energy generated from the braking system or waste heat. There is a guy in my parents' neighborhood that bought into one of those scams and actually saw a reduction in gas mileage. My guess is that its a part a result of the extra draw on the battery (making the alternator work harder) and part that the computer had no idea what to make of the new fuel mixture.

Think of it this way - if a kit like that were able to return those kinds of gains, manufacturers would use it, or a variation of it.

Just because it works the manufacturer would already include it? So then cars would include every device that helps gas mileage then? We know hybrids work, and you don't see everycar running a gas/electric hybrid. We know electric cars work, but you don't see manufacturers using all electric cars with few exceptions.

The system IS simple. So easy that you can go to home depot and spend ~$30 on the basic parts. Then fill it with water, hook it up to a 12V system, and like "magic" this stuff just converts water into combustible gas. We just finished our 128oz system tonight and turned it on, and I didn't expect anything to happen. Within 1 second that water looked like it was at a rolling boil, and to prove it made gas we ran it through a bubbler, and it blew tons of bubbles. Then to prove it was combustible we lit a long lighter and put it over the gas bubbles and guess what, it popped with little explosions like blackcat fireworks. My freaking ears were ringing! All that from junk parts, tap water, and a catylist. If I didn't just see it with my own eyes and do the "experiment" myself I would not believe it either, but it's amazing.

Now, will it work in a car to reduce gasoline consumption? I don't know yet. I won't tell you whether it will or not until I install it on my car this week or so and test it for a couple tanks of gas.

Gearbanger 101 · Jun 11, 2008

jerzeykilla said:
...one reason is how to deliver it, you can have a hydrogen tank, which is fine untill you get into an accident, then it becomes a bomb which will kill you and everyone around you.

'06 stang said:
I can't help thinking of mushroom clouds when I think of Hydorgen. I will take my chances and stick with the old tried and true 93 octane dino gas.

Guess you guys don't remember the old propane powered cars of the '80's and '90s, huh?

stangdude2000 said:
Also, a "did you know": according to recent studies by BP, 2/3 of our oil supply comes from North America (including Mexico). We have a lot less dependancy on "foreign" oil (people typically refer to foreign oil as oil from OPEC countries - Middle East/Venezuela) than most people believe.

Correct. In 2006, Canada suplied 840 million barrels of oil to the US.

stangdude2000 · Jun 11, 2008

PSYKOSTEVO said:
Just because it works the manufacturer would already include it? So then cars would include every device that helps gas mileage then? We know hybrids work, and you don't see everycar running a gas/electric hybrid. We know electric cars work, but you don't see manufacturers using all electric cars with few exceptions.

The system IS simple. So easy that you can go to home depot and spend ~$30 on the basic parts.

Hybrids are significantly different than something that costs ~$30 (and would cost manufacturers around $5) and hardly takes up space. On many vehicles, Mustang being one, it is impossible to package a full gas/electric hybrid system without a significant redesign. Many times, it can't even be packaged while keeping the vehicle in its intended style. Something as simple as the systems you are talking about, however, would be incredibly easy to package. With the upcoming significant increase in CAFE fuel efficiency requirements, if it returned meaningful gains, such a system would be implemented.

The scientific fact is that it takes more energy to perform electrolysis than you get from burning the products. Unless you are using otherwise wasted energy, its impossible to see fuel gains.

PSYKOSTEVO · Jun 11, 2008

stangdude2000 said:
Hybrids are significantly different than something that costs ~$30 (and would cost manufacturers around $5) and hardly takes up space. On many vehicles, Mustang being one, it is impossible to package a full gas/electric hybrid system without a significant redesign. Many times, it can't even be packaged while keeping the vehicle in its intended style. Something as simple as the systems you are talking about, however, would be incredibly easy to package. With the upcoming significant increase in CAFE fuel efficiency requirements, if it returned meaningful gains, such a system would be implemented.

The scientific fact is that it takes more energy to perform electrolysis than you get from burning the products. Unless you are using otherwise wasted energy, its impossible to see fuel gains.

So how would a system drawing off the cars electricity not be able to produce a fuel that would be beneficial?

Saying it takes too much power is like saying you should turn off your radio, because you would get better gas mileage by having it off. It does not make much sense to me.

1990Coupe · Jun 11, 2008

You guys ever see this site???

http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/

stangdude2000 · Jun 11, 2008

PSYKOSTEVO said:
So how would a system drawing off the cars electricity not be able to produce a fuel that would be beneficial?

Saying it takes too much power is like saying you should turn off your radio, because you would get better gas mileage by having it off. It does not make much sense to me.

Thats actually true. Turning off your radio would give you better mileage. You'll never EVER notice it though. Its an incredibly low draw on the battery. The energy has to come from somewhere. The battery stores energy from the alternator which saps it from the engine. Sometimes it will be waste energy, other times it will not.

Think of it this way: Chemical reactions are taking place. Energy is a required part of any chemical reaction. Any time heat, sound, or light is produced, energy is being released and wasted if it is not 100% contained within the system. You perform a chemical reaction by performing the electrolysis on water. Heat is produced and energy wasted. You will not be able to use the heat to run your car. You perform another chemical reaction to turn the gas back into water. Heat is produced, and energy is lost.

Two more thoughts - if the above were untrue, don't you think power plants would use this?
To get the same amount of chemical energy as one gallon of gasoline, you would need to burn the hydrogen from about 2.4 gallons of water. This assumes no loss of energy along the way. Putting a half gallon tank of water on the car is like equipping it with an extra potential of .2 gallons if no loss. I don't know how fast it would be consumed though.

PSYKOSTEVO · Jun 11, 2008

Well, nuclear powerplants do generate their power from water. They excite the water molecules by controlled exposure to Uranium rods, and then use that superheated steam to turn turbines, which produce electricity. So I think they found a use for water as a source of energy.

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