How much power is bumping the timing really worth?

[99FiveOh]

Now that my car has done pretty well after a week, I figured last night I'd drop the hammer and give it some hell. On the interstate I lined up with a buddy in his 94 GT with headers and a GT40 intake and the usual exhaust setup. From a 50 mph roll we ran 'em and he pulled right away from me.

Keep in mind, this was NOT street racing, we were simply seeing who could get to the posted speed limit the fastest!

I'm running with factory 3.27 gears and he has 2.73's. I'm not sure if he's got his timing bumped but I set mine to 10° when I installed my motor. Is a few extra degrees really worth it?

I can't recall what a timing increase has done on the dyno on a pretty much stock motor, any ideas?

 

[BlackVert]

i wonder if the weight difference is the main reason for his being faster ...

in general, are the 99s heavier than the 95s?

is his a vert?

what computer/tune do you have?

wait till you get the windsor/s trim on there ....

 

[99FiveOh]

He is in a coupe. And verts are heavier, but I really don't see a New Edge being any heavier, it's all cosmetic differences really.

 

[BlueSaph95GT]

a few thoughts on this one. i feel like there are way too many variables to pin this down, but here are my ideas:

1. increased weight vs. the 94/95 coupe
Reinhold Racing - Mustang weight information

2. are you positive about the gears on the 99? I'm assuming you checked the tag on the rear cover since I saw your build thread and clearly you have a good deal of mechanical experience.

3. does he have all accessories like a/c hooked up like you do? Or was he running a short belt?

4. did the owner perform any weight reduction in the 94/95 you are not aware of?

5. perhaps the eddy rpm intake is too much for the stock e7 heads - perhaps you are losing low end torque compared to the GT40 setup

6. not sure how many miles your longblock has vs. his, but that could be a possibility. i remember seeing an old article in MMFF or 5.0 magazine and a basic tune up on a 5.0 was worth quite a bit of HP when compared to the worn out parts

7. were you running around for a while with the a/c on prior to this run? i know my mercury feels like a dog with the a/c on and right after it's shut off on very hot days

8. computer/tune/sensor issues with the intake and a stock 94/95 tune. aka SN95 hell (and why I feel like so many people sell their SN5.0's after modifications)

i can't imagine bumping the timing would be more than 10 hp, tops, but i could be wrong. go for it! and like vert mentioned, wait til you get some BOOOOOOST and this will not be a problem!

the car looks great btw. cool swap and tasteful additions/removals (see ya side stripes!)

 

[99FiveOh]

Thanks for the compliments.

2. I checked the axle code on the door sticker and it said "Z5" axle code. Didn't check the rear end tag because I really have no plans to keep it. But I can tell you this rear end has never been removed before!

3. Yes, his car is a full weight, completely functional car. All accessories are in place.

4. No weight reduction that I can see. Looks like a clean, stockish 94 GT.

5. Yeah, I think the eddy is too much for this setup. I may get a Performer upper and run that until some boost comes along. However, I can apply that cash toward my blower and have it sooner so I think I might go that route.

6. Miles on my longblock? I'm just as clueless as you on that one. The previous owner of the 94 I took the motor out said the engine was rebuilt prior to him buying the car and that he put at least 100k miles on it. When I pulled the motor apart to change some parts in it I noticed that all the gaskets seemed to be original. The engine was super clean and runs pretty nice so I'm not sure what to think.

7. My A/C isn't charged yet. Going to do that tomorrow.. and I cannot wait! It's flippin' hotter than hell down here!!

8. I hear ya on the tune. My car is running pretty solid so I'm greatful of that.

I will bump the timing and see how it responds. Blower will come when funds allow and a tune along with it.

 

[BlueSaph95GT]

Ok here's a thought (that I would hate to be true), but on the rebuilt motor are they e7 heads? or are they older truck/crown vic heads?

some of the rebuilders in my area do some shady chit like that and sell them as "mustang engines"

again, cool swap. looking forward to the updates. I think you should throw boost at that longblock until it breaks like the old Tim Stockwell 5.0 builds (if you remember reading/seeing about those).
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/featuredvehicles/m5lp_0412_1992_ford_mustang_lx/index.html

 

[99FiveOh]

They are definitely E7s. Like I said, I would bet money that this engine was never apart before I messed with it. I'm guessing the dealer the last owner bought the car from just swapped the engine with a lower mileage on it and claimed it to be rebuilt.

 

[VibrantRedGT]

My neighbor broke the ear off his Edelbrock Peformer intake and since I had an RPM upper sitting on my floor we put it on his stock motor so he could get to work / school. To both of us the car seemed much slower with the RPM. Seems to make power it needed to rev but we figured the heads / cam just couldn't handle the area where the RPM wanted to peak. He then took the Performer upper to welder where they fixed that ear. Went for a drive after installing the upper and the car had much more torque and usable power. I don't even think the gear you have is good for the RPM either. Although I can understand your putting a blower on. However the Performer intake even with a blower I believe will make more HP without over revving the stock heads / cam.

 

[99FiveOh]

Yeah, my last supercharger build up had nothing more than a Performer intake and headmen headers and it made 425 hp to the tires @ 13 psi. If I can duplicate that number I would be tickled pink. I was very proud of that setup and I would sit and stare at it all day:

wish I still had that car

Anyway, if anyone looking at this thread needs a RPM upper and wants to trade I'm game. Doesn't even have to be polished!

 

[revhead347]

Bumping the timing generally makes a huge difference. I would take it up to at least 14 degrees if I were you. Generally speaking the new edges are a little bit lighter than the SNs. They have aluminum brakes, a few little things like that.

Kurt

 

[paul23122]

OK i am totally new to this forum and to the mustang 5.0. Just bought one from a friend. 1995 mustang gt. But was wondering what is the New Edge mean and the SN references mean? Sorry for the ignorance. Its like texting with all the abbreviations. Thanks.. sorry for the stupid question, but many more to follow...
Thanks!!!!

 

[revhead347]

A new edge refers to a 99'-04' Mustang. An SN is short for SN 95 which refers to 94'-98' Mustangs.

Kurt

 

[BlownFiveLiter]

SN95 actually spans the entire Fox4 production run, from 94-04. The "New Edge" name is to differentiate the 99-04 models, since that's when they redesigned the body, although they left the chassis relatively untouched.

 

[aar0s]

I thought that the chassis was basically the same from 79-04, but im probably wrong on that.

 

[99FiveOh]

The magic word being "basically" the same. In 94 Ford significantly improved the Fox chassis by leaps and bounds! And it kept tweaking the platform here and there until it's end in 04. It was really time for this chassis to be retired, it had been used since 1977 and in the Mustang since 79 so it was over a quarter century old technology!

Still though, I like my mufflers being under my rear seats instead of sticking out under the bumper like the S197s

 

[alleymad95GT]

Still though, I like my mufflers being under my rear seats instead of sticking out under the bumper like the S197s

You know, that is something that bugs me about just about every new car...

Why in God's name would I spend some insane amount of money an an M3, for example, and then have to see the muffler??? It just looks tacked on to me...like the appearance from the back was an afterthought...

 

[99FiveOh]

Well, the timing bump has made the car slightly more responsive. I'm surprised that with 12~13* I'm getting zero pinging. I had the A/C on with the temps really creeping up there and even with a lugging 4th gear pull it still didn't ping! Before this motor would ping with only 8* of timing. Probably the slipping balancer like always

 

[revhead347]

Well, the timing bump has made the car slightly more responsive. I'm surprised that with 12~13* I'm getting zero pinging. I had the A/C on with the temps really creeping up there and even with a lugging 4th gear pull it still didn't ping! Before this motor would ping with only 8* of timing. Probably the slipping balancer like always

Eh, it usually doesn't start pinging to over 18 degrees.

Kurt

 

[toyman]

Eh, it usually doesn't start pinging to over 18 degrees.

Kurt

Mine (before mods) would ping above 14* using 87 octane. 18* is a lot of base in the timing.

 

[HISSIN50]

Kurt, did you have alum heads in mind when you noted that?