hypothetical engine question

robertdeuce · Aug 6, 2011

lets say im looking for an engine for a daily driver that makes high hp/torque.
an engine that makes 300-400 hp at the wheels, what engine would that be and what would be the the best place be find that engine? also, i've seen alot of crate engine online, example a 347 stroker with 415 hp. the hp mentioned with these crate engine, is that to the wheels or the crank?

FastDriver · Aug 6, 2011

Typically crate engines are measured at the crank. Your question is too broad. You can make 300 or 400 to the wheels with just about any engine. There are millions of ways you could put the different motors together. Since you're in 5.0 talk and you mentioned a 347 stroker, I'll assume you're talking about a 302-based combo. An N/A 302 with stock pistons with AFR165s, AFR185s (pistons notched), or TFS TW heads, with a Performer, SystemaxI/II, or RPM/RPMII intake, or even a ported GT40/Cobra/explorer intake, with a custom cam and long tube headers should put down over 300rwhp after it's tuned. A 347 stroker with AFR185s, AFR205s, Vic JRs, TFS fast as cast 190cc, or 205cc heads, a Systemax II, TFS-R, etc type intake and a custom cam should make 400rwhp. Those are N/A combos.

About the cheapest way to do it, in initial purchase price would be a 125 shot of nitrous on a stock motor.

Alternatively, an S-trim, which you can buy for pennies used, or a turbo cranking out 15 psi and a good tune would also put you well over 300rwhp.

Just pick your poison.

Chris

robertdeuce · Aug 6, 2011

thanks, was basically asking what a good daily driver crate engine was. budget, 5-7 thou.

Rick 91GT · Aug 6, 2011

Do you have any parts you want to reuse?

Ive built a lot of 331/347for customets that make mid to high 300hp and tq to the wheels with very streetable combos. The key is the right mix of parts...

2000xp8 · Aug 6, 2011

FastDriver said:
About the cheapest way to do it, in initial purchase price would be a 125 shot of nitrous on a stock motor.

Alternatively, an S-trim, which you can buy for pennies used, or a turbo cranking out 15 psi and a good tune would also put you well over 300rwhp.

Just pick your poison.

Chris

Chris, what's up with you suggesting the nitrous these days? I don't see that as a modern solution to anything but a race car. You never struck me as a nos guy.
For a daily driver if i had the choice of stroker with good heads or supercharger, i'd go stroker, less headaches.

Ford racing screwed everyone when they stopped offering their 347 hyper crate engine built with the B block. No it doesn't have r or dart block strenght or even close, but most people can't afford that kind of setup anyway, so for the street driver it was a great engine.
$2200 New in crate.
My buddy consistantly had cars that made 425rwhp and up NA with them.
Never burned an ounce of oil, some of these guys have had their setups for years.

capri debris · Aug 6, 2011

I wanted around 300hp with reliability and good street manners, so I went with the Trick Flow Track heat kit and couldn't be happier. Not tryng to sell their product, but it's a well thought out kit that's easy to install on a stock 302 bottom end. With some 24lb injectors, 70mm TB, 75mm mass air and a 255lph fuel pump, it's good for about 350 crank hp and about 280 rwhp. Toss in some 3.73 gears you'll easily be able to run in the 12's in the 1/4.

Yes it's a little costly and you could piece together a similar combo for a lot less, but I chose to pay for a kit that took all the guesswork and running around and searching for the right parts out of the equasion... not to mention it's all new stuff and looks good right out of the box.

FastDriver · Aug 6, 2011

2000xp8 said:
Chris, what's up with you suggesting the nitrous these days? I don't see that as a modern solution to anything but a race car. You never struck me as a nos guy.
For a daily driver if i had the choice of stroker with good heads or supercharger, i'd go stroker, less headaches.

I'm just as much for nitrous as I am for anything other than a turbo. I think there are definitely modern inherent advantages in using nitrous.

I know and understand that in the long run it isn't cheap because you have to refill and it's not always easy to find a place and probably a dozen other problems we could discuss. However, here are some definite advantages:

- initial purchase price for a given amount of hp, say 100-200hp. A basic setup can be done for about $500. For say a 125hp shot, that's $4/hp... that's tough to beat.
- the fact that unlike boost from a blower or turbo, you can use it on a high compression motor without increasing the risk of detonation. This makes it perfect for the guy that wants to build a badass n/a combination and have forced induction on top of it. It's also great for the guys driving factory cars that already come with high compression. Take the newer corvettes for example, the LS2/3/7 have compression ratios from the factory of 10.9/10.7/11:1. I'd be a bit concerned about boosting those motors. I'd be less concerned about pushing a 150-200 shot through them.
- Nitrous can be used in other ways to increase detonation resistence (spray through intercooler
- I love turbos, and I can definitely see going to a larger turbo one day with a small shot to quicken spool time.

Anyway, I've got to get going. duty calls.

Chris

Noobz347 · Aug 6, 2011

Nitrous. A very inelegant solution for making 'cheap' HP. I mean cheap in the sense that all too often, folks slap it on, hit the button, and end up scooping up the parts with a dustpan.

There are some GREAT nitrous systems out there. Were the OP someone that I would recommend these systems to, then I wouldn't be recommending them because he would already know enough about it to have one picked and planned out. IMO nitrous systems are not where one should be, 'cutting his teeth'.

If in the budget, a crate motor or performance rebuild of your current motor built with a great combination, is fast, reliable HP.

FastDriver · Aug 6, 2011

Ok... I'm not going to defend nitrous with my dying breath here. The guy's looking for crate motors anyway. I'd personally talk to Rick and let him build me a motor. As an alternative, check out one of the popular companies out there like Ford Strokers, DSS, or any one of the thousands of other companies that build SBF motors.

Noobz347 · Aug 6, 2011

Hehe... not picking on ya Fastdriver... Just seen too many noobs go, "POP" on the bottle.

robertdeuce · Aug 6, 2011

ya im not really into nitrous at this point, im sure if i was going to the track every week i would be though. i;ve been looking at a few crate engines online and came across one from performance unlimited 347 Sroker, 331 Crate Engines, Ford Stroker Engines, Ford Performance Engine

has anyone heard of them? what do you guys think of the 347 stroker in the link, is that too much money for that engine?

FastDriver · Aug 6, 2011

I don't like his vague statements like "aluminum heads with 200cc runners" and "the shortblock will be balanced" "assembled with new bolts" "aluminum performance intake manifold"

I hope it's going to be balanced, but that doesn't tell me if he's using quality parts. $6900 is definitely on the expensive side for a 347, but it's more than just a long-block, but this is more than a long-block, too. It comes with a Carb, a coil, etc...

I think the parts that he does list are quality, but question the parts he doesn't list. I've heard questionable things about Eagle internals, but I've also heard great things about their forged stuff from guys running 1000+hp. So, I would definitely research and scrutinize the eagle rotating assembly online a little before I dug into this motor. 425hp crank hp (361rwhp @ 15% loss) is honestly on the weak side for a 347. With that much money, especially on a carb setup, I'd expect to see 400+rwhp.

I've never bought a crate motor, and I don't think I could, at least not for a performance motor. Custom building a motor or having it built will result in it more closely matching your personal expectations. If you want advice on components, just ask. There are a lot of guys here that can steer you in one of the many right directions.

Chris

85_SS_302_Coupe · Aug 7, 2011

For the money you mentioned i would build a stroked Windsor. It will take more abuse than a 302 based stroker and being a daily driver youll want something that takes abuse. You could build it mild and put a blower on it and make well over your goal hp.

Cooner187 · Aug 7, 2011

To the OP; I too will be in a similar situation (sort of) down the road... I want a nice street-able 400-450HP to the wheels engine and I think it might be looking like a 408w...

85_SS_302_Coupe · Aug 7, 2011

Heck, you could get a junkyard 351W, put a cheap rebuild it in it, put some P heads on it and basically build yourself a cheap Lightning 351W, then put a used blower on it and make stupid power with it that wouldn't cost you near as much as you mentioned spending. That would give you enough money to cover all the 351 swap parts, and probably even buy another hood if you needed the hood clearance. In the end it would make ridiculous torque, which is what you want in a fun DD.

FastDriver · Aug 8, 2011

Got your message. Here's my advice if you're set on getting a crate motor go to fordstrokers (use google).

Take a look at the "liberator long block" not the "complete cruiser." This guy has an excellent reputation. All of the components are quality: Scat, Clevite, TFS, Melling, Moroso, perfect circle, Fel-pro, etc... I think the 190cc heads are plenty, but you can definitely go up to the 205s, too. The only checkbox I would add is the complete bottom end for the fox mustang. That brings your price to $5,775, which leaves you plenty to add a Systemax II intake, 75mm+ TB, & MAF if you don't already have that stuff.

Call FordStrokers and tell him (forget the owner's name) that you want to send him your own cam and ask him what kinda price break you'll get for that. Then email Ed Curtis (phone calls are difficult) at Flowtech Induction and have him send the custom cam straight to FordStrokers for installation. He charges $325 for a custom hydraulic roller.

TFS190cc or larger heads with a custom cam and the Systemax II intake should be a solid 400rwhp motor.

Everything the guys have said about the 351Ws is good information, too. I've not personally done the swap. Just keep in mind that you'll need some extra stuff to ensure the motor fits. It is a pretty straightforward way to make good power, and the blocks are definitely stronger than the 302s.

Chris

robertdeuce · Aug 8, 2011

why not the complete cruiser?

Rick 91GT · Aug 8, 2011

I also do complete "turn key" motors if your interested, Ive helped a lot of guys on this forum, just to give you another source. Ill customize it to your "exact" needs.

rnhperformance1@gmail.com

FastDriver · Aug 8, 2011

Rick, FWIW, I recommended you first, in this thread, and unless I do it myself, I'll be talking to you if/when I build another SBF. You might still end up with my current car one day. I've seen nothing but outstanding results from you, and have never heard a negative comment. Plus, I've enjoyed a couple/few conversations with you in the past. The OP seems relatively set on going crate (see my vistor messages), although I don't see the difference in ordering a crate motor and picking a good builder. I doubt these motors are sitting around waiting to be shipped.

Anyway, Robertdeuce, I wouldn't go the complete cruiser route for 1 major reason - it's carbed. Oh, and I remembered the guy's name, it's Woody, I think. Other things that pop out at me, the 170cc heads are the standard ones on the complete cruiser - they aren't enough IMO for a 347. The 28oz balance is nice, but not necessary on a budget and a 50 oz can absolutely be spun above 6000 rpm. Your computer, I've recently heard, won't let the motor spin above 6500. The stock dizzy is fine, why buy another unless yours is worn out?

That's about all I can think of.

Now, being a new guy you might tend to be concerned when a lot of guys on a site recommend another forum member, Rick91GT. What I'd ask you to do is go back and look at threads from his customers. Here's one I highly recommend, but I've already got dibs on his car if he ever decides to sell it. So, don't try http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/members/89stang1/

srtthis · Aug 8, 2011

rick FTW!

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