Intake elbows?

95opal · Dec 3, 2007

I myself am still not convinced that the fox swap would flow better than the SN set up. My common sense tells me that the SN 45* elbow, in theory should flow better than the fox 90* bend off the TB. At least thats the way I think. I know from my T-body to my fender well mounted filter its a strait shot. If I were to convert to a fox set up I would have a 90* bend instead of the 45* elbow plus an added 45* bend to get into the fender. To me one bend is better than 2

gcomfx.com · Dec 3, 2007

final5-0 said:
Hey Paul

Got any pics of your setup you could post up

Grady

The setup now has 4" 90* elbow in the fender with the IAC sensor moved to the elbow.

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=713160 <----- pics of the current setup here.

I may or may not keep the C&L pipe. It's nice to have more room in that area, but it adds more bends and twists, plus it gets HOT. PVC is definitely being looked into this next engine pull. With the A/C out of there, it'll be even more room.

5spd GT · Dec 3, 2007

Someone post up a sn-95 and a fox-swap set-up so we can look at the "design" between each

fastgtfairlane · Dec 4, 2007

i had an elbow and one weekend decided to do a little test and got rid of the elbow. after a day and a half of fabricating parts and drilling, i was able to make my sn95 tb bolt up to my manifold without the elbow. i have a ton of 1/8 thick aluminum sheets and cut out a piece to put between the manifold and tb to block the egr passage and used another piece to make the throttle cable bracket. after all was said and done i dont think i picked up any power but i noticed a huge increase in throttle response.

before pics. excuse the dirty engine compartment.
View attachment 343980
View attachment 343982

after pics eventually gonna make a new cai just reused old one for now.
View attachment 343985
View attachment 343987

dartvader · Dec 4, 2007

Killercanary said:
I hope to have data soon on the swap as I just purchased a complete fox TB setup with a 75mm accufab TB and it will be going on my car. I too want to see once and for all what this swap is worth on a NA car.

Subscribing

5spd GT · Dec 4, 2007

I think a lot of the "gains" people speak of is the throttle response they "feel," but at WOT, not much difference for many.

Killercanary -

Here is what I would like to see done, if possible in this order

- Port your intake (if you need to) a little bit into the intake tract first.
- Do the fox body swap and dyno
- Then dyno it with the 65mm TB
- Then swap TB's and dyno it with the 75mm TB.

This will give 3 runs on the dyno and can isolate what power comes from where maybe...

I am sure I missed something there that is not practical, like doing the foxbody swap "at the dyno." But at the very least, I would love for the intake to be ported (if you are going to, even with the Systemax 75mm opening), and dyno the 65mm and 75mm on the same day/same dyno.

That keeps many of the variables down...

Oh, and one more thing. I see that the fox set-up is seen as a 90* angle. I think you guys need to take a peek again. The angle are actually pretty close to each other. Maybe I just had a fluke fox, but mine did not come with a 90* angle

This is opinion here, but in fact, it seems the sn-95 actually has a "steeper" turn than a fox set-up The sn-95 makes a very sharp turn right at the intake entrance.

Any comments...

gcomfx.com · Dec 4, 2007

5spd GT said:
Oh, and one more thing. I see that the fox set-up is seen as a 90* angle. I think you guys need to take a peek again. The angle are actually pretty close to each other. Maybe I just had a fluke fox, but mine did not come with a 90* angle

This is opinion here, but in fact, it seems the sn-95 actually has a "steeper" turn than a fox set-up The sn-95 makes a very sharp turn right at the intake entrance.

Any comments...

Any comments? Yeah page one.... look at the pics.

final5-0 · Dec 4, 2007

Ain't it funny how you see stuff all the time on here
and then .....
When you want to find it to help someone or enhance an explanation

YOU CAN'T SEEM TO FIND IT

I've seen so many nice Fox setup pics
but
I could not find em last night

anyway

Each setup can be different but in general terms

Most Fox setups I've seen I felt were functional had the bend at the tb
to be not quite a 90 but closer to 90 than 45 and certainly more of a
severe bend than the SN setup.

And Also ... as was mentioned above .............
The SN setup with the less severe bend allows
a straight shot to the fender hole

Where as ... the Fox setup needs another bend to find cool air

My focus is always on function before appearance
I just wanted to make it clear the thing you see about ........

"The Fox setup cleans up the engine bay" has no bearing on my interest
in this discussion.

True ... it really does do that
but
I sure ain't gonna spend all that money
for just that reason

Now ... if it was proven to make some power

I might add it on my list of ... to do mods
depending on how much it made

O Yeah ... I almost forgot another point of interest

For me ... I like to be able to just pull in the inspection place each year
and not have any worries about not passing the emissions testing

I mean ... Its been proven over and over ... it does not sap but a tiny
amount of power from a typical street NA combo such as mine.

The Fox setup complicates the egr issue a good bit over the SN setup
as I see it

Grady

5spd GT · Dec 4, 2007

gcomfx.com said:
Any comments? Yeah page one.... look at the pics.

Too late, already did and then I looked at my routing pictures.

gcomfx.com · Dec 5, 2007

Keyword in your comment is "MY routing". Might make more sense to some of us if you posted pics of your routing for the rest of us who have terrible memories.

final5-0 · Dec 10, 2007

Back from the dead

I just found a pic that shows what I was talking about not liking
with the Fox conversion.

See how the tb points straight toward the shock tower

See how you need a 90 bend to deal with the shock tower

See how you need a second bend to make it into the fender hole

Too many bends and the severity of them is the down fall of this method
is how I see it as it offers more restriction to the flow.

The SN setup is just one 45 bend

Grady

5spd GT · Dec 10, 2007

gcomfx - Mine is routed like a typical fox 5.0L

I believe they perform very close. The sn-95 looks good all the way until the very point where the intake elbow bolts up to the upper intake. It is a sharp passage at that point. Anywhere before that looks pretty good, besides the very slight "twist" in the pipe.

Personally, I believe a nice set-up is as straight as possible. Keep the air filter in the engine bay, but insulate it from the engine bay, similar to how the K&N FIPK kits are. This eliminates one of the bends. Make a straight pipe, with no twist and have one progressive bend at the throttle body.

Less bends = better airflow/less turbulence = more power

I notice that the sn95 tubes go into the fenderwell (bend), then flexes a bit after the alternator, and then bends at the intake.

I say, we can all be happy with one bend

fastgtfairlane · Dec 10, 2007

i see that there is more bends in the intake tubing to the throttle body but i truly think that the one that hurts the most is the 45 degree bend after the throttle body. i just think that the air moving in will lose velocity after the throttle body. i noticed a difference after removing the elbow. and it wasnt in my head.

5spd GT · Dec 11, 2007

Crazy thinking to keep it alive...

What about just extending a pipe straightoff the throttle body into the passenger side fenderwell, which would make the MAF at the "wall" or in it. You could call it a modified fenderwell set-up

Does the MAF need to have a certain length of pipe between it and the throttle body? Of course, there would need to be some fabbing.

So has anyone seen anything like this?

The straighter, the better, right?

This would eliminate the bends, besides air coming into the conical filter

95cobraguy · Dec 11, 2007

fox t/b swap all the way!!!

final5-0 · Dec 11, 2007

5spd GT said:
Does the MAF need to have a certain length of pipe between it and the throttle body? Of course, there would need to be some fabbing.

David

I ran the OEM meter coupled to the tb with a Fernco rubber connector for over a
year on one of my older combos.

It ran great!

I had my Tweecer for a short while before changing that setup
so I can also say nothing in the datalogs gave me any reason to suspect
having the tb and meter that close caused a problem.

I will say I've seen it said you might get some reversion of airflow when you
have the two units that close together. Idle issues due to big duration
cams and that kind of thing ... don't ya know.

When I had that old setup, I was running the stock cam and you know how
it purrs like a kitten at idle due to it being so tame.

I doubt you would see any of those issues since its duration is ...
well ... does it even have any

Grady

Killercanary · Dec 12, 2007

5spd GT said:
Crazy thinking to keep it alive...

What about just extending a pipe straightoff the throttle body into the passenger side fenderwell, which would make the MAF at the "wall" or in it. You could call it a modified fenderwell set-up

Does the MAF need to have a certain length of pipe between it and the throttle body? Of course, there would need to be some fabbing.

So has anyone seen anything like this?

The straighter, the better, right?

This would eliminate the bends, besides air coming into the conical filter

That is exactly how we have my dad's fox setup and its how my fox TB setup will be. On a fox, you must eliminate the EGR in order to have enough room for it to work. I don't have any pictures of it though. Most NA heads up cars that I have seen run their intake setups this way if it tells you anything.

5spd GT · Dec 12, 2007

Killercanary said:
That is exactly how we have my dad's fox setup and its how my fox TB setup will be. On a fox, you must eliminate the EGR in order to have enough room for it to work. I don't have any pictures of it though. Most NA heads up cars that I have seen run their intake setups this way if it tells you anything.

It sure does I am curious to what kind of fabrication is needed. Do you recall if the MAF is in the fenderwell or in the engine bay area?

Also, thanks for the info Grady.

final5-0 · Dec 12, 2007

I do admit to being slow to see things at various times
so
I have learned to ask ... SPECIFIC ... questions to enlighten myself

About the Fox setup

Are you guys saying it is possible to have a straight shot from the filter in
the fender hole to the bend just before the tb thus only having one bend
and also having the ability to draw cool air from within the fender

Here is a pic of my crude but effective home made setup for clarification

Grady

Stanger007 · Dec 12, 2007

So how would we know one is better than the other? You can't go on seat of the pants, I doubt it is enough to notice. Noone wants to go get dyno time just to figure this one thing out.

Here's what I did when I put on a larger throttlebody on my S-trim (stocker TB to BBK 70mm TB -- using stock Vortech outlet).

I datalogged the WOT MAF flows at various RPM points to see if I was flowing more air. The altitude density has to be the same when you do this, or you have to do it on the same day fairly back to back.

Perceived throttle response was huge but it was not because of an increase in power, just an increase in where I expected it to be. I even had to change my part throttle tranny shifting points because it took less pedal to flow the same air it was previously and the transmission was shifting lower than I wanted it to.

Long story short, I flowed exactly the same, around 1423kg/hr max and the same around the RPM band.

I am boosted -- is it the same for a N/A car? Do better flowing heads/intake play into this? Lotta variables to consider before making a blanket statement... you tell me, go datalog.

Wes

Intake elbows?

95opal

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