Its a timing question

zwhitr said:

come on guys/girls no help for the weary.

ps my starter is starting to sound bad again after sounding so good for a few months

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Z-man I would confirm the marks on the balancer. Take #1 plug out and rotate the engine by hand and make sure Top dead center is....ur Top dead center. If top dead center is not correct Mr. Gasket has timming tape that you can re-mark the balancer. As a bonus it is really easy to read....until it flies off anyway. Another thing to check is the wires are connected properly to the distributor. I know the MSD distributor will work if wired up backwards, but the timming will be all wacky. MSD warns you of this in the distructions. Since the MSD distributor has a pick up that looks very much like a Duraspark P/U, it would stand to reason it would be possible to hook it up backwards also.

Good luck dude, I owe you one for the strut rod cross member bushing P/N (thanks again)

Z-man MSD has a kick ass tech line 915 855 7123 and they actually return
e-mails too.

msdtech@msdignition.com

There internet sight is pretty good too

www.msdignition.com

My Boss would have a *&%$ promoting MSD on Stangnet while getting paid to sell Crane

sounds like the isolator spun, be careful using it

zwhitr said:

Thanks J
I actually did email them their response was "the hookup with the least amount of advance is the correct one". I tried both mine was correct plus I knew mine was right anway I wouln't risk blowing an almost $200 dollar box. Because I RTFM WROTFLMAO

It sure looks cool even it don't do anything The first thing I did was put a 3000 chip in their for fun
what spark gap do you recommend I'm at .050 right now

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.050 sounds perfect, I am running .045 for nitrous safety sake. I have not put the strut rod crossmember bushings in yet. On one hand I can't wait to rip the Mach apart and play with it, on the other hand the weather is still holding so why not drive it?? Who needs 2nd gear and a car that does not sound like a shopping cart anyhow??

As a matter of fact, yes, the Mustang II does have a particular balancer that must be used with the corresponsing pointer. They are D5ZE part numbers. (don't have my partnumbers in front of me) The easiest way to solve the problem is get a different pointer - a non **ZE part number. I think the typical common engine parts were **OE numbers. You'll need to stick to just the 302 as the 289's pointer is on the opposite side.

A nice tool to have is an adjustable timing light, so all that's required is the single TDC mark.

Dano78 said:

As a matter of fact, yes, the Mustang II does have a particular balancer that must be used with the corresponsing pointer. They are D5ZE part numbers. (don't have my partnumbers in front of me) The easiest way to solve the problem is get a different pointer - a non **ZE part number. I think the typical common engine parts were **OE numbers. You'll need to stick to just the 302 as the 289's pointer is on the opposite side.

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Damn, Dano, you left the secret out.

There are right side/ left side ballencers where the only real difference is where the marks are on the ring, and each must be used with the correct right side/ left side indicator.

I'm not sure if the II was the only SBF to use that particular pointer and dampener, ...later

Oops! Dang it!

Yeah Actually there are 3 different COMMON 289/302 balancers out there. All using corresponding pointers.
There is the 289 balancer which is kinda thin looking and uses a pointer that is casted into the timing cover on the LH (driver's) side of the engine or the later '66-'67 pointers were removable and was held in on one end with a sheetmetal screw in a boss in teh cover and the other end with a front cover mounting bolt. The dampner itself only uses a 3-bolt lower pulley and requires the use ot he earlier waterpump which exits the RH (passenger) side of the engine. There were 2 different RH exit waterpumps used on the 289.
After the 289 Balancer is the early 302 balancer. Used from '68-'74 is has the same 'thin' appearance as the 289 balancer. What I mean buy thin is the thickness of the dampening ring. If you set a '75 302 balancer next to a '71 302 or any 289 balancer, you'll see what i'm talking about. All the 302's used a 4 bolt lower pulley. And can be interchanged with an other 302, except..... the Mustang II pulley set must be used in a 'set' only. For some unknown reason Lee and his crack team of designers found it necessary to alter the 'offset' (like on a car wheel) i think it's like 3/8". Lord (and Lee) are the only ones who know WHY they did this. Anyhow the '68-'74 balancer has a timing pointer specific to its own. It mounts on the RH side (pass) and is held on the front cover with two of the front cover bolts.
Now- the '75-up balancers kinda 'porked' out, like the fullsize cars themselves. The balancer is thicker making it larger and heavier than the others. (i weighed each balancer and have the info SOMEwhere around here) It's still a 4 bolt pulley and the timing pointer is still on the RH side...BUT... it is located slightly in a different spot and requires it's corresponding pointer. The pointer for this balancer bolts on at BOTH ends via front cover bolts.
Now here's where it gets tricky.... Like Wart, i too thought all post-74 balancers were created equal.... not so... and again, for SOME reason, a special balancer and timing pointer was created for the use in the Mustang Ii V8. No kidding. Easily identified by the D5ZE part number on both the balancer and the pointer. The normal 75-up pointer doesn't have a part number on it at all..... to my knowlege. The balancer, however will most likely have a D5OE part number.

I found all this out when building my last couple of engines. Trying to use a common post-74 pointer on a MII balancer... they were close to lining up at TDC but were off, if I remember right, about 10* or so. On my engine in my Fastback, i'm using all '70 302 pulleys, balancer and bracketry all of which is single groove V-belt running just the alternator and waterpump. (I have no PS)

Oh man , yeah Wart, I sat there in the shop thinking... "What the **** ... what was Ford THINKING on this thing..." Took me a bit to gather what the heck was going on.

You're lucky.... I found one of the pics. The one on the right is a 75-up balancer and also looks like the MII balancer. The one on the left is for '68-'74 302's. The 289 one is similiar.

Here's a pic of three different pointers used on the 302. I didn't have a common 75-up pointer to show you, just the Mustang II specific one.

And WHAT do I do in my SPARE time??? HA! What spare time...

I chose the lighter one myself, just for the simple fact to make it wind up faster. Yes, both are the exact same balance. Only caution would be if you had your rotation assembly pro-balanced and a whole unit, there is a possibility that shancing the balancers may take it out of 'True' balance. Just remember to get the corresponding pointer for that balancer.

I'd still doubble check your balancer with one alike (or the correct pointer on your engine) so you can decide to shelf ot toss the one in question. Spun counterweights on SBFs are less common than say on a SBC which eats balancers quite frequently.

Wart said:

I'm not sure if the II was the only SBF to use that particular pointer and dampener, ...later

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So much for the O'l Lady needing me NOW (then).

Dano gave you lots more info than I think I could, I have moved several times since I had a collection of ballancers and that cast iron can only follow for so many moves.

I think some applications of '69 had a 3 bolt ballancer. I remember having a set of Ford underdrive pullies I couldn't swap to a new(er) engine. Man, that irked me.

What's interesting is, in days of Yore with the factory cam chain and gears, timing marks were academic. Oh Hell, why stop there ... unless someone was sinking money into the valve train the use of a timing light was a curiosity. Not only were the cam chains sloppy the valve train geometry was a joke and the cams were made of a material closer to pot metal than iron. Sometimes change is good.

Use to be the only way to set a factory Fords timing was the roll on the throttle method.

Good stuff, Dano. I think we are in agreement with the statement that: go far enough back in Fords and parts use can become more speculation than fact. Hell, I have a '70 351C here, there were 2 ballancers used, a High Performance and a 'normal', I have hte High Perf one but what I've gathered from other sources is both types found their way to 4bbl C's. Go figure.

Forgot to state: If you've put money into the valve train, and even if you havent, it's a good idea to replace the distributor armature with an aftermarket unit. The factory armature is known to be degrees off.