KB versus Novi 2000 - which is better for cold weather, cold startups?

Ghost001 · Aug 3, 2005

Hello,

I was glancing through the Paxton street manual:

http://www.paxtonauto.com/pdf/manuals/Street_Manual.pdf

and the Vortech street manual:

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/pdf/guides/streetfile.pdf

and I was dismayed to see, on page 1 of each manual, that they say that you should never cold start a Paxton-blown or Vortech-blown engine if the temperature is less than 25 degrees Fahrenheit, because of the very tight tolerances of the Paxton/Vortech blower.

This is a big minus for me, because I like the idea of being able to drive my Stang in the Rocky Mountains, and other cold places, and go camping, without having to try to find a place to plug in an engine block heater.

Does the Kenne Bell have similar constraints?

What about a roots blower? Procharger D-1SC (50-state legal)? Procharger F-1 (50 state legal?)

Which type of blower is best for cold weather, cold starts?

By the way, I like the low-rpm torque of the KB 1.7 (can't get the 2.2 because I live in Cally), but I like the fact that the Novi 2000 has the potential to put out 700 rwhp or more, versus 500 rwhp for the KB 1.7. If I could get the KB 2.2, I'd probably get that, but since I can't, I'm trying to decide between the KB 1.7 and a centrifugal.

MT1083 · Aug 3, 2005

I don't know about the centri's but I don't ever recall seeing a note like that in my KB manual. I've also never had problems starting mine up in freezing temps either. So I guess its fine.

Gearbanger 101 · Aug 3, 2005

Well, if cold start ups and reliabilty are your concern, you could always go with an Eaton (Roots) based kit as another alternative. They've been proven stone reliable in all temperatures, which is why all automobile manufactures with supercharged model vehicles continue to use them as standard equipment. The FRPP, Saleen, Roush and AED kits are all roots based in that respect. I've got the AED blower on my car, which is the same version M90 used on the '89-94 Thunderbird Supercoupe......and how many of them do you see on the road with over 200,000 miles on the clock.

The down side though, is that you'll never see over 400rwhp with any of them. So if you're happing with that kind of power (which is still enough for high 11's) then you're good. If not, you'd better carry an electric blanket with you to wrap around the blower everytime the car is parked for long periods of time.

03trubluGT · Aug 3, 2005

Gearbanger 101 said:
The down side though, is that you'll never see over 400rwhp with any of them. So if you're happing with that kind of power (which is still enough for high 11's) then you're good. If not, you'd better carry an electric blanket with you to wrap around the blower everytime the car is parked for long periods of time.

Well, I'm at 401 RWHP and that is with the factory snorkle, factory airbox, factory MAF, factory airtube to Accufab 75mm TB.

I now have the KB CAI with 90mm MAF and have yet to get it dynod, but I'm sure I'm putting down a few more, maybe around the 420 rwhp range. I could put on the 14# pulley and hit 450, but then I'd be ventilating a stock block.

Just giving you some info on your inaccurate data.

Matt

Gearbanger 101 · Aug 3, 2005

03trubluGT said:
Just giving you some info on your inaccurate data.

Thanks for the heads up Matt, but my data is bang-on for an "Eaton" based supercharger.....which I though was made pretty clear that I was talking about in my descriptive statement above. It's common knowledge that KB's will make over 400rwhp with little effort....but then again, they're not "Roots" based blowers, are they....they're Twin Screws. Silly Texan

sgarlic · Aug 3, 2005

Dr. Black · Aug 3, 2005

Gearbanger 101 said:
My data is bang-on for an "Eaton" supercharger.....which I though was clearly described in my above statement. It's pretty commone knowledge that KB's will make over 400rwhp....but then again, they're not "Roots" based blowers, are they. Silly Texan

What He Said....Although I don't know about that Silly Texan Thing....but what ever!!!

forpit2000gt · Aug 3, 2005

Gearbanger 101 said:
Well, if cold start ups and reliabilty are your concern, you could always go with an Eaton (Roots) based kit as another alternative. They've been proven stone reliable in all temperatures, which is why all automobile manufactures with supercharged model vehicles continue to use them as standard equipment. The FRPP, Saleen, Roush and AED kits are all roots based in that respect. I've got the AED blower on my car, which is the same version M90 used on the '89-94 Thunderbird Supercoupe......and how many of them do you see on the road with over 200,000 miles on the clock.

The down side though, is that you'll never see over 400rwhp with any of them. So if you're happing with that kind of power (which is still enough for high 11's) then you're good. If not, you'd better carry an electric blanket with you to wrap around the blower everytime the car is parked for long periods of time.

sorry, I'm correcting

Ghost001 · Aug 3, 2005

MT1083 said:
I don't know about the centri's but I don't ever recall seeing a note like that in my KB manual. I've also never had problems starting mine up in freezing temps either. So I guess its fine.

Cool, thanks MT!

I was really on the fence between the KB and the cetri, so this cold weather issue will probably sway me toward the KB. I'm glad, because I really want to see what that low-rpm torque is like.

I'd really like to find a way to get the 2.2. Maybe I'll wait and see. Maybe I'll eventually move out of Cally. I've only lived in Cally for 1 year. Or maybe KB will get an EO number for the 2.2, if it turns out that there are lots of guys like me who don't want to be limited by the 1.7 but live in emissions-picky states.

Sure, it will probably be a long time before I ever get a forged short block, but I don't like the idea of being limited, because I will get a forged short block, when my stock block eventually goes. I keep thinking that maybe I could get the 2.2 tuned in such a way that it would be able to run off of 91 octane and an 8 pound pulley on the street, and then put out huge numbers at the track with 110 octane and a 15 pound pulley.

Still, it is tempting to get the 1.7 now.

Ghost001 · Aug 3, 2005

Gearbanger 101 said:
Well, if cold start ups and reliabilty are your concern, you could always go with an Eaton (Roots) based kit as another alternative. They've been proven stone reliable in all temperatures, which is why all automobile manufactures with supercharged model vehicles continue to use them as standard equipment. The FRPP, Saleen, Roush and AED kits are all roots based in that respect. I've got the AED blower on my car, which is the same version M90 used on the '89-94 Thunderbird Supercoupe......and how many of them do you see on the road with over 200,000 miles on the clock.

The down side though, is that you'll never see over 400rwhp with any of them. So if you're happing with that kind of power (which is still enough for high 11's) then you're good. If not, you'd better carry an electric blanket with you to wrap around the blower everytime the car is parked for long periods of time.

Thanks, Gearbanger!

That agrees with what I've heard, that the roots blowers are the most reliable by far.

Maybe I'll look into a roots, if someone tells me that a KB shouldn't be cold started in cold weather.

Gearbanger 101 · Aug 3, 2005

Ghost001 said:
Maybe I'll look into a roots, if someone tells me that a KB shouldn't be cold started in cold weather.

The KB’s "Screw" compressor is built with tighter clearances than the Eaton’s "Loeb" style compressor, so this would lead me to believe that in very cold weather, you may experience similar tolerance issues that you would with a Centrifugal......but this is just speculation on my part. You’d be best to contact Kenne Bell directly about the issue and see what they’ve got to say about it. After all, they’re the ones that have to warranty the blower if it ceases up on you.

Ghost001 · Aug 3, 2005

Gearbanger 101 said:
The KB’s "Screw" compressor is built with tighter clearances than the Eaton’s "Loeb" style compressor, so this would lead me to believe that in very cold weather, you may experience similar tolerance issues that you would with a Centrifugal......but this is just speculation on my part. You’d be best to contact Kenne Bell directly about the issue and see what they’ve got to say about it. After all, they’re the ones that have to warranty the blower if it ceases up on you.

That makes sense, regarding the tolerances.

Surely, though, there must be some people on this forum that have a KB and live in Minnesota or something, and drive their Stang in the winter. I'm hoping to hear their feedback. Did their blower break after a very cold startup?

Anyone with a KB: Does it say anywhere in the instructions, or warranty, that you cannot cold start it in cold weather? MT said he did not see it anywhere in his manual.

If it's not written down, then they have to honor their warranty if such a thing happens, I would think.

Ghost001 · Aug 3, 2005

Regarding the tolerances, I would have thought that metal shrinks in cold weather, therefore the metal surfaces should be farther apart, rather than closer together.

Or do the metal parts warp in some way, in the cold weather?

Gearbanger 101 · Aug 4, 2005

Ghost001 said:
Regarding the tolerances, I would have thought that metal shrinks in cold weather, therefore the metal surfaces should be farther apart, rather than closer together.

Or do the metal parts warp in some way, in the cold weather?

The shrinking metal in cold weather isn’t the problem. It isn't the contraction or expansion of the metal itself, but the rate in which it expands which might create headaches. Aluminum will expand faster than iron and different grades of each will expand faster than others. This is why motors with forged pistons often are built with greater tolerances than that of say a Cast or Hypereutectic piston engine and why you often hear a little cold start piston slap on those crisp cool mornings as a result. If memory serves, the Screws in the KB blowers are Teflon coated much like the ones on the Eaton’s, which does help matters....but without knowing for sure with what tolerances the blowers have been built to, pretty much anyone answering this thread is going to be guessing. You'd have to contact the manufacture themselves to get a truly accurate answer. If I had to venture a guess (and it’s to be taken only as that), I’d probably lean towards things with the KB and cold start ups likely being ok, but in the same instance repeated cold start ups will shorten an engines lifespan and the same principals would apply to your blower. So keep that in mind.

Ghost001 · Aug 4, 2005

Thanks for the info, Brian.

I imagine that the winters are pretty cold in Ontario.

Do you drive your Stang in the winter?

Is an engine block warmer easy to install/use?

Gearbanger 101 · Aug 4, 2005

Ghost001 said:
Thanks for the info, Brian.

I imagine that the winters are pretty cold in Ontario.

Do you drive your Stang in the winter?

Is an engine block warmer easy to install/use?

Yeah, they can get that way. We usually get a few cold snaps every year (-30C/-35C) but otherwise it's pretty much like any other place. We just get a lot more snow than most (save for Quebec). No, I didn't drive my Stang during the winter months (I sold it last September and bought a Merc Cougar in it's place) It was pretty much useless in the snow and most of us Northerners with RWD sports cars have Winter-Beaters to get us through those months. As for the block heater.....it's not a difficult install and they're only about $50.00, but to tell you the truth, I can't even remember the last time I installed one, since they all come standard equipment on vehicles here.

MT1083 · Aug 4, 2005

Just FYI KB's don't have any teflon on the screws.

StratGT · Aug 4, 2005

Regarding blowers and winter usage:

You will either have to call the manufacturer or someone will have to re-read their instruction manual for the KB. Try to do a search on ModularFords.com, there is a large KB forum on that site.

Many Vortech and Paxton's are sold here in Canada with no indication that they cannot be used in the Winter. Unfortunately the "cold weather warning" is on tne instructions. Well, here in Toronto the temperature during Jan and Feb can be as cold as -40C degrees. Most people garage their Stang here in the winter or take the Subway.

Call KB or search on Modularfords.com.

03trubluGT · Aug 4, 2005

Gearbanger 101 said:
Thanks for the heads up Matt, but my data is bang-on for an "Eaton" based supercharger.....which I though was made pretty clear that I was talking about in my descriptive statement above. It's common knowledge that KB's will make over 400rwhp with little effort....but then again, they're not "Roots" based blowers, are they....they're Twin Screws. Silly Texan

Ok, I was working off of the "any of them" part of your statement. I'm clear now.

Matt

Ghost001 · Aug 4, 2005

Does anyone else out there drive their centri or KB Stang in the winter?

Have you cold-started it in temps below 25 degrees Fahrenheit?

KB versus Novi 2000 - which is better for cold weather, cold startups?

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