Leaky drum rear brakes

sixtyfive · Aug 1, 2010

I am in the process of getting the mustang ready for cobra disc front brakes and these wheels.
Wheel Details - Discount Tire Direct

One of the problems I am needing to track down before I start on the front end is a leaky drivers side rear drum brake. I am not very knowledgeable with drum brakes and I am basically wondering what I should try replacing first in order to fix it. From the pictures I took it does not look like the leak is coming from the brake fluid line. So I am thinking it is leaking either some where from inside the drum or it is actually the rear end that is leaking.

Thanks for the advice guys

Wildbill3 · Aug 1, 2010

It may be the axle seal it doesn't look like the brake cyl. is leaking if can you get your nose close enough to the backing plate rear end grease has a very distinct smell.ick

PoppyMod · Aug 2, 2010

My guess, from what I can tell, is axle seal, as well. replace both while at it.

sixtyfive · Aug 4, 2010

Judging also by the amount of flud / gunk that had spread from the tire around in the wheel well, it is likely the rear end that is leaking. I have read a few write up's on rebuilding a ford 9" and I am going to try replacing the axle seal as well as the the seal at the front of the third member as oil is leaking from there too. Some of what I read online said that I would need to replace the axle bearings, but hopefully that is not the case.

horseballz · Aug 4, 2010

Before you go tearing into your rear to replace seals, You might want to check that your differential isn't over filled. Some shops are notorious for over filling and if over full, even good/ok seals will seep/leak. Put a pan under the center of your differential and pull the fill plug and see if gear oil starts to flow out. If it does flow, let it continue until it stops. Clean off (with brake cleaner) all the leaked oil and see if it still leaks.
HTH,
Gene

sixtyfive · Aug 6, 2010

I opened the fill hole and nothing drained out, the oil level was probably 3/8ths of an inch low of the fill hole.

So at best it looks like I would need to replace the Axle retainer plate gasket as well as the oil slinger gasket to fix the leak on the third member.

Loup-garou · Aug 6, 2010

sixtyfive said:
(snip)
Some of what I read online said that I would need to replace the axle bearings, but hopefully that is not the case.

If you're pulling the axle shafts to replace the seals, you may as well pick up a set of rear outer axle bearings and have them pressed on. If you bring the axles to a shop to be pressed, make sure they don't remove the old bearings the way a previous owner did to my car - with a cut-off wheel.

Yup, I had a leak just like yours and replaced the seals, thought it was fixed. A day or two later, the lube was oozing out again. Upon closer investigation, I found a neat curved channel in the axle shaft, centered right under the bearing - which allowed the 90W gear oil to bypass the seal. Could've probably stopped it up with black RTV, but I went ahead and replaced the axle shaft.

zigmont · Aug 7, 2010

Pretty simple to check for a leaking wheel cylinder. Simply grab the end of one of the rubber caps on the wheel cylinder and pull it away from the cylinder. If fluid leaks out the cylinder is leaking. Check both ends.

If you do decide to remove the axle to replace the seal, It has been my experience that the Ford 8" axels pull out rather easily. I have personally removed axles using the brake drum as a makeshift axle puller.
Here is how I did it:
With the drum off, reach through the hole in the axle flange with a 9/16 socket and remove the 4 nuts that hold the axle in the housing. Next, reverse the brake drum so the inside is facing out. Slide it onto the wheel studs and screw the wheel nuts on backwards (so the flat side is facing the drum)a few threads so there is about an inch of threads still left showing. Now, while holding the drum with both hands, gently slide the drum in as far as it will go and pull back quickly so the drum strikes the back side of the wheel nuts. If the axle does not come out on the first try, you can try a second or third time.
If the axle refuses to budge after several attempts, you will have to get a regular axle puller to remove the axles.
Do not under any circumstances tighten the nuts down and try to beat on the drum with a hammer to remove the axle, as this can severely damage the drum.
I have done this many times, and usually the axle will come out on the first or second try.
I am curious if anyone on the forum has ever pulled an axle the way I described. If so, Let me know how it worked out for you.

zigmont · Aug 7, 2010

Loup-garou said:
If you're pulling the axle shafts to replace the seals, you may as well pick up a set of rear outer axle bearings and have them pressed on. If you bring the axles to a shop to be pressed, make sure they don't remove the old bearings the way a previous owner did to my car - with a cut-off wheel.

Yup, I had a leak just like yours and replaced the seals, thought it was fixed. A day or two later, the lube was oozing out again. Upon closer investigation, I found a neat curved channel in the axle shaft, centered right under the bearing - which allowed the 90W gear oil to bypass the seal. Could've probably stopped it up with black RTV, but I went ahead and replaced the axle shaft.

It has been my experience that the seal on the Ford 8" rear end is on the other side of the wheel bearing. Even if there was a grove in the axle, you should not have any oil getting past the bearing unless it leaked past the seal first.

sixtyfive · Aug 9, 2010

zigmont said:
It has been my experience that the seal on the Ford 8" rear end is on the other side of the wheel bearing. Even if there was a grove in the axle, you should not have any oil getting past the bearing unless it leaked past the seal first.

Not sure if he was referring to working on an 8 or 9" rear. Mine is a 9" out of a Galaxie. The diagram i posted is of a 9" too. Thought I had mentioned it earlier but i did not.

68RCodeConv · Aug 13, 2010

When pulling the seal be very careful not to gouge the seal seating surface. Otherwise the oil will leak out through the gouge. Get a seal puller (found at auto parts store, very cheap) to get it out.

Loup-garou · Aug 15, 2010

zigmont said:
It has been my experience that the seal on the Ford 8" rear end is on the other side of the wheel bearing. Even if there was a grove in the axle, you should not have any oil getting past the bearing unless it leaked past the seal first.

Yes, that's correct. My car had the original 8-inch axle assembly. The notch left from the cut-off wheel was just long enough to reach the seal location, rendering it ineffective. Since the notch passed under the bearing as well, that didn't offer any resistance to the leaking lubricant, either.

StangDreamin' · Aug 15, 2010

zigmont said:
Here is how I did it:
With the drum off, reach through the hole in the axle flange with a 9/16 socket and remove the 4 nuts that hold the axle in the housing. Next, reverse the brake drum so the inside is facing out. Slide it onto the wheel studs and screw the wheel nuts on backwards (so the flat side is facing the drum)a few threads so there is about an inch of threads still left showing. Now, while holding the drum with both hands, gently slide the drum in as far as it will go and pull back quickly so the drum strikes the back side of the wheel nuts. If the axle does not come out on the first try, you can try a second or third time.
If the axle refuses to budge after several attempts, you will have to get a regular axle puller to remove the axles.
Do not under any circumstances tighten the nuts down and try to beat on the drum with a hammer to remove the axle, as this can severely damage the drum.
I have done this many times, and usually the axle will come out on the first or second try.
I am curious if anyone on the forum has ever pulled an axle the way I described. If so, Let me know how it worked out for you.

Uhhh, Zig..... Back sometime in the 90's there was a series of articles in Mustang Illustrated (maybe it was Mustang Monthly, I forget) called "The Cheapskate Chronicles", that covered a guy's low-buck restomod of a '69 'vert; one upgrade was in changing out the rear gears. The guy described in detail exactly the method you're suggesting; and it's been pretty well documented lots of times over the years.

As for wondering "... if anyone on the forum has ever pulled an axle the way I described..."; yeah, probably more than a couple around here have done it. Personally, I can tell you it's easier on the 8" or small bearing 9" axles than it was on the big-bearing 9" in my '72 F100! But, that axle had spent a night in a stream before being drug home backwards on a car dolly, to replace a snaggle-toothed ring gear and gnarly-looking pinion; so there was probably some 'build-up' around the outer bearing...

Those that didn't know about it before probably learned it from the guy; who's known around here as chepsk8. Dan doesn't get on here so often anymore (I usually catch him on FB or the Factory Five Forums); but I'm pretty sure he would recommend your method

68stang351 · Aug 15, 2010

StangDreamin' said:
Uhhh, Zig..... Back sometime in the 90's there was a series of articles in Mustang Illustrated (maybe it was Mustang Monthly, I forget) called "The Cheapskate Chronicles", that covered a guy's low-buck restomod of a '69 'vert; one upgrade was in changing out the rear gears. The guy described in detail exactly the method you're suggesting; and it's been pretty well documented lots of times over the years.

As for wondering "... if anyone on the forum has ever pulled an axle the way I described..."; yeah, probably more than a couple around here have done it. Personally, I can tell you it's easier on the 8" or small bearing 9" axles than it was on the big-bearing 9" in my '72 F100! But, that axle had spent a night in a stream before being drug home backwards on a car dolly, to replace a snaggle-toothed ring gear and gnarly-looking pinion; so there was probably some 'build-up' around the outer bearing...

Those that didn't know about it before probably learned it from the guy; who's known around here as chepsk8. Dan doesn't get on here so often anymore (I usually catch him on FB or the Factory Five Forums); but I'm pretty sure he would recommend your method

That's Cheapsk8, he's here somewhere.

That is a good way to remove the axle, never thought of that.

65stanger · Aug 15, 2010

68stang351 said:
That's Cheapsk8, he's here somewhere.

That is a good way to remove the axle, never thought of that.

Beg to differ, Dan's screen name is Chepsk8 NOT "Cheapsk8"

But I guess StangDreamin' nor I would know, since we three are commonly refered to the Geezers of the Closet Crew/Gutter Gang.....

chepsk8 · Aug 17, 2010

Yes, I have not been here much recently, being Mustang-Less!

But, still check in every now and then. Thanks for the Kudos guys!

StangDreamin' · Aug 17, 2010

No probs, Dan. I see you had a good time at The Glen.
Cobrask8 conquered Turn 9 yet again!
Hooray for our side!

sixtyfive · Aug 18, 2010

Loup-garou said:
If you're pulling the axle shafts to replace the seals, you may as well pick up a set of rear outer axle bearings and have them pressed on. If you bring the axles to a shop to be pressed, make sure they don't remove the old bearings the way a previous owner did to my car - with a cut-off wheel.

Yup, I had a leak just like yours and replaced the seals, thought it was fixed. A day or two later, the lube was oozing out again. Upon closer investigation, I found a neat curved channel in the axle shaft, centered right under the bearing - which allowed the 90W gear oil to bypass the seal. Could've probably stopped it up with black RTV, but I went ahead and replaced the axle shaft.

I was confused before in thinking that the axle bearings were actually pressed into the rear end and not onto the axle. Now that I have that cleared up in my head I might as well replace the bearings and seals like you suggest. Can any average tire shop press these on?

PoppyMod · Aug 18, 2010

sixtyfive said:
I was confused before in thinking that the axle bearings were actually pressed into the rear end and not onto the axle. Now that I have that cleared up in my head I might as well replace the bearings and seals like you suggest. Can any average tire shop press these on?

Typically, I would say the average tire shop would not have the capability. At least, this has been my local experience.
It requires someone knowledgeable in this type of operation and requires one helluva press. Look for either a machine shop or full service auto care. You might check with a local Midas shop. Sometimes, your local NAPA dealer can suggest a shop.
Good Luck!

sixtyfive · Aug 25, 2010

I managed to get some time to dissemble the brakes and pull the axle out. After undoing the retainer plate bolts the axle pulled out freely, it also slides back in quite easily. Is this a problem? I am not sure how tight it should fit into the rear end.

I also noticed that the axle shaft did have a small amount of oil in it which was then making its way out through the 5th hole on the retainer plate. Could I gasket over that 5th hole to prevent the fluid from coming out of the shaft or would it be best to replace the bearings and seals?

Also I am having a hard time finding parts for the rear end. From what i can tell it is a small bearing 9" out of a 57ish galaxie. It has no ID tag. Do you guys have any suggestions on what type of bearings and from what site i should order them? Summit was not much help.

Thanks

Leaky drum rear brakes

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