Longtime Lurker needs help! plzz

[tmoss]

The PIP signal goes to the EEC through the TFI which the EEC uses to delay spark and to time the injectors by watching for the one "skinny" signal from the #1 shutter wheels on the hall effect (PIP) sensor. The EEC does ground the injector, so you have a problem with the EEC or the injector wiring harness - i.e. bad connection or ground.

I've never heard of it happening, but I wonder if the PIP could fail just enough to not be able to distinguish the #1 shutter wheel? I saw a post a while back in one of the mechanics web sites that said the shutter wheel can become "magnatized" and cause problems - that created a good deal of discussion and debate.

 

[Flyn50]

Success!! Well, at least a small victory. I found the problem with the injector ground. It was a broken wire within the harness. Only tracked it down when I was checking for cont. and tugged the wire a bit, and it came out of the harness. DOH!! Fixed the wire, and not the "noid" light flashes crazy when you trun the enging over. .... Notice that last line.

The blasted thing still isn't starting.

So, now that I am getting fuel and spark, I devided to double check timing, and with SPOUT out, it reads 10BTDC. Unfortunately, there is nothing else positive to report. Any other ideas, now that we can as least shift gears and tackle another problem.

Thanks again guys, I wouldn't be this far if it wasn't for the help.

-Russ-

 

[BarnStang]

Cool beans! Progress is always good. I have to assume you checked the whole harness out. Do you have all the injectors firing now? The damage could extend to more than one wire...strange problem.
If it won't start, what does the spout have to do with it? Make sure base timing is set per your shop manuel. Top dead center on number one cyl. on the compression stroke. Dist rotor should be pointing to number one term on the cap. Does is even try to start? Are any of the header tubes getting warm? Sounds like you're close.

 

[Flyn50]

Ok, after I was convinced the injectors were firing, (via the noid light) and I was POSITIVE the firing order / timing / Ignition / fuel pressure were good, I broke down and bought some starter spray. Couple o shots into the intake, and then I turned it over.

Voila!...of sorts. Life! It fired right up, and ran for a bit...until the starter spray worked itself out.

Sooo, now I am starting the believe that my Noid light is deceiving me. Is it possible that the injectors are getting just enough juice to trip the noid light, but not enough to actually fire the injectors? If so, I still need to check resistance between the ECU and the injectors.

Is there any other injector ground or engine ground that I need to be aware of other than the main ground strap, and the "injector ground loop" coming out of the wiring harness?

Man, I know I am so close I can feel it.

-Russ-

 

[Haxored]

have you pulled your fuel line out to see if the fuel pump is working ?

Just a thought.
Thats a very good sign though, at least you know everything else is straight.

Good luck bro

 

[BarnStang]

That pretty much proves everything works as far as timing and ignition. So, either the inj are not actually firing, or there is no fuel in the rail. If you pull an inj out of the rail, is their wet fuel on top? If the rail is indeed presurized, then I'm not sure what could be left. If the noid light indicates the harness is carrying the signal from the EEC, then the inj should fire. Granted, the inj will pull more current than the light, but it should not be that sensitive. The only thing left is that you do not have a signal ground back to the EEC. You're going to have to check every wire on the inj harness. There still must be a broke wire somewhere. Check continuty all the way back to the EEC. Or if possible, swap out the inj harness under the hood. Where did you find the broken wire at specifically? Also, check for a bent pin on the EEC connector jack. Unlikley though.

Grover suggested pulling in inj earlier. The system could prime and the FPR not let anything through to the rail, but you said the pressure was good. What are you getting for fuel pressure, and where are you taking the measurement?

 

[jerry beach]

You are having some really bad luck. Now you know its a fuel delivery prob. If you have a good injector lying around, plug it in and hold it in your hand while someone turns it over. You will feel it clicking in your hand. I have done this, and I kept my old inj. for this purpose. It will tell you for sure if injectors are firing. It should be running, or at least trying to. I might even try and swap ECU's with a friend at this point.

BTW, I hate to put starting fluid in a gas engine. I will pour a little gas in it, close everything up and move the gas away from the car and start it up. If it wont run on gas, there is a bigger problem the spray wont fix. You must be very careful with gas though, I have set myself on fire with it and that ******* hurts.

 

[Flyn50]

Barn: When I break loose the an fitting on the rail, gas goes flyin'. I am testing for fuel pressure on the feed side at the Y-Block before it gets to the rails. Pressure is at 40PSI as long as I am trying to turn the engine over. Of course it falls shortly after I turn the key off.

I found the broken wire about 6 inches into the injector harness. It was the injector ground wire. The only thing holding it to the harness was 14 year old tape. Before I repaired that wire, the noid did nothing. Now it flashes.

Jerry: You know, the other day I thought I should be able to feel the injectors fire, so while my brother was turning the car over, I checked if I could feel them firing...nothing.

When the key is on, the harness gets +12v to the hot side of each injector. I have test continuity on the left and right side of the injector (neg side) harness back to the ECU, and it shows good. I have not checked resistance yet however.

I did try another ECU, with the same results.

I have an engagement this evening so I won't be able to work on it until tomorrow night. I will check the things you guys suggest, and I will report back. Again, I greatly appreciate your time and help.

Thanks guys!

-Russ-

 

[Flyn50]

GOT IT RUNNING!!

You guys are not going to believe this. Let me recap my logic, just so I don't sound like an idiot.

I always had good fuel pressure, and spark. The thing would run on starting spray, so we definately had it narrowed down to fuel. Then I found the bad injector ground. After that, my NOID light would flash, but the thing still would not start.

Sooo, after probing the harness to and from the ECU with no obvious answers, I was a little irritated to say the least.

Logic should have smacked me upside the head when the noid light flashed, but the engine didn't start. Yesterday, it finally did.

*Note* Remember when I said when I turned the engine over it sounded like it the coil wire was off? No, it wasn't that...it was a fuel problem.

Sooo, I took one of the injectors off the car, and took it over to the bench and hooked up a switched 12v to it.....and ..... NOTHING!

No little click..no nothing. Just like hooking up a rock to a battery.

Sooo, I took one of an old set of injectors, and hooked it up to the switched 12v....and it made an audable CLICK!

DAMNIT!! Soo after I put my old injectors in, it fired right up.

Testing the other injectors (the ones on the car at the time) proved that EVERY ONE OF THEM FAILED TO OPEN!! Every ONE!?!?

I can only assume that between the time when the crate engine was on the dyno and now (approx 5 weeks) the injectors gummed up!?!

Soo, thanks again guys. I knew we would get it.

I appreciate everyone's help.

-Russ-

 

[sleeper89]

wow, i never would have expected ALL of the injectors to get fudged in a five week span. anyhow, good to hear everything is back in order.

-steve

 

[gaslight]

wow I wouldn't have expected them to do that either.

 

[BarnStang]

I would be interested to know what's actually wrong with them. I can't imagine every one of them is gummed up. It sounds like all of them failed electrically. Unbelievable. Congrats on getting it going!