Manual brake master cylinder

i believe it is a 74 maverick with non power disc/drum

This is the one I used. It worked fine for about 2 years, I removed it to do 4 wheel power discs.
http://www.napaonline.com/masterpages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=470&LineCode=TS&PartNumber=101602&Description=Brake+Master+Cylinder+-+Remfd

dharrelson said:

This is the one I used. It worked fine for about 2 years, I removed it to do 4 wheel power discs.
http://www.napaonline.com/masterpages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=470&LineCode=TS&PartNumber=101602&Description=Brake+Master+Cylinder+-+Remfd

Click to expand...

What did you use when you went to 4 wheel disks. Did it mount in the factory holes?

65kcode said:

What did you use when you went to 4 wheel disks. Did it mount in the factory holes?

Click to expand...

I bought the entire High Zoot Mustang Steve set-up:
http://www.mustangsteve.com/cable.html
#CK265M at the bottom of the page. MC is not included, he recommended 2006 6cyl Mustang, so I used that. The power booster will not fit in the factory mounting holes, which is one reason I used the fabbed pedal support, it saved me having to do that fabbing. In retrospect, I wish I had not gone with power boost. It is pretty grabby now. I ran the 4 wheel discs with the granada disc-drum mc, and it worked well, but I didn't have it like that for long. The 2006 mc might work, but it didn't come with a rod, so you'd need to find one the right length. Maybe an adjustable one.

65fastbackresto said:

Did this mount in the factory holes?

Click to expand...

Yes.

65fastbackresto said:

I got that mc, installed it, but its for a power brake setup and I didnt know before I put it on. Parts guy didnt know if that would be an issue or not, so we went with it. Only issue is real soft pedal and the brakes are almost to the floor. We bled and bled them with not much better results.

Only thing I haven`t changed is the distribution block and I think there is something called a metering valve in the dist block for the granada, sound right anybody?

Been doing more digging, apparently need something called a residual pressure valve, and they aren`t easy to find, Napa dont carry them. Oh Reillys dont either.

Click to expand...

Shoot, did I click on the wrong one? I meant part # TS 101602. The power brake MC is TS 101614. Go to napaonline, and look for a mc for '77 or so granada. they show one at the top of the page and the next one is for power brake. I just went to my local NAPA and asked for a mid-seventies MC. It worked like a champ. I also used a proportioning valve (combination valve) for a '73 or so Maverick, but I think it's the same as the Granada. The comb.valve has the residual pressure valve built in (hence the name).
I just went to junk yards and asked for a Granada, didn't find one, but found the Maverick so I used it. I did find a lot of Fairmont, Ltd, etc, the comb valve looked the same, but I didn't try any. I think any of them will work
Are you sure the rear brakes are adjusted up close enough to the drum?
I've heard tell of MCs being bad out of the box, but I've never experienced it.
Man, maybe I just got lucky, but I didn't have any problems at all, and the joy I experienced after was well worth the effort.
I'm really sorry if I led you astray, but it worked great for me.

The discs on the Granadas were actually first used on the Mavericks and Mercury Comets starting in 1974 and the same brake parts carried over into the (new) 1975 Granadas and Mercury Monarchs. That being said the MCs from the '74-'77 Maverick/Comets is the very same MC used on the '75-'80 Granada/Monarchs with discs front/drums rear.

If the Mav/Com/Grn/Mon MC has a 1/2"-20 primary port fitting size and a 7/16"-24secondary fitting size, then it's a MC for power brakes. If the fittings sizes are 7/16"-24 and 3/18"-24, then the MC is for a manual brake setup.

In either case, the bore diameter of these MCs is 15/16".

The Residual Pressure Valve (RPV) is installed in the secondary port of the disc/drum MC (the secondary port being the one closest to the front of the vehicle), that supplies fluid to the rear brakes. You will not find an RPV in the stock (Ford) proportioning valves.

The RPVs were mainly present in the MCs produced by Ford through the 70s model vehicles that were equipped with drum/drum or discs in front and drums in the rear. By the 80s, most of the RPV valves had been phased out of use. A primary example of this is in the '79-'93 Fox Mustangs. With the exception of the '84-'86 Mustang SVOs and the '93 Cobras --both of which had 4-wheel disc brakes, ALL the other Fox Mustangs of this time had disc front/drums rear. In my own 1990 Mustang 5.0L GT [My '90 5.0: http://ultrastang.com/Images/Scanned/June2002/07.jpg ], there is no RPV present in the secondary port of its disc/drum MC, nor are there any present anywhere in the system to the rear drums on it.

A few of the late model (4-wheel disc) Ford vehicles lists certain MCs with RPVs that screw into the MC's port (externally), but [and this is just my theory], I believe this is for certain vehicles that are equipped with ABS units only.

Before the '60s, many Amercian (particularly Ford models) were equipped with 4-wheel drum brakes and there were RPVs in both primary and secondary sides of the MCs. During this time though, many MCs were not mounted on the firewall of vehicles, but instead were mounted under the floor board. This put the MC at or slightly below the center line of the wheel cylinders. This would cause the condition of "drain-back", where the fluid in the wheel cylinders would migrate back into the MC's reservoir. The next time you went to apply the brakes, the fluid in the reservoir would have to make its way back into the wheel cylinders and refill them before the pistons inside would finally start pushing the brake shoes against the friction surfaces of the brake drum --not good for instant brake reaction. The RPVs were needed to keep a given amount of pressure on the wheel cylinders (approx. 10 psi for a drum brake), to keep the brake fluid from being drawn back up into the MC before its next braking application.

In the 60s, many of the MCs were begining to be mounted higher up (on the firewall). With the MCs being placed there, it moved them well above the level of the wheel cylinders to stop drain-back. However, for the next couple of decades, Ford continued to use the valves eventhough moving the MC higher than the calipers/wheel cylinders eliminated this problem, until the 80s when the RPVs were pretty much phased out of use altogether, and that's about all I know or remember off the top of my head for now. This is my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Sorry it took so long to reply, but I wanted to make sure of what I thought I remembered. 65fastbackretro, I don't think your problems are with the MC. Your symptoms (soft pedal, next to the floor) sound like this:
Quoting from http://www.thebrakeman.com/valvetechi ,
"We may as well start with the residual valve, because it is the first one that should be determined whether or not it is needed. This valve does exactly as its name suggests. It keeps a pre-determined amount of residual pressure in the line after you remove your foot from the brake pedal. This aids in preventing excessive pedal travel as well as insuring consistent height to the pedal. In a drum brake, heavy return springs are present to pull the shoes away from the drums. When not in use, the shoes are pulled back until they rest on a centering pin, usually located at the 12:00, or top position, on the backing plate also holding the wheel cylinder. In order to avoid the excessive pedal travel to move enough fluid from the master to activate the shoes, a 10-12 pound residual valve is installed in the line. Sine the return springs are stronger than the 12 pound valve, the shoes are pulled away from the drum in spite of the resistance so no brake drag results."

Contrary to what ultrastang said, the residual Pressure valve is not in the port of the MC I got from Napa.
Here's some pics I took of the port and valve from an old '67 Mustang MC I had sitting around, and the port and seat from the Granada MC I got from NAPA. You'll see the lack of a valve:
http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii272/d_harrelson/respressure%20valve/
I couldn't find anythin definitive about the Ford combination valve speciffically, but the consensus sure seems to be that the residual pressure, proportioning, and metering functions are all included in the combination valve.
Again quoting The Brakeman:

"To really get the most practical benefit from this information, you first need to know what valves are in your system, and where they are located. The residual valve, for example, could be found in a variety of locations. On most American cars and trucks up to the mid 1960's, the valve will probably be found inside the master cylinder. In a single master cylinder, it will be located at the bottom of the bore and look like a little brimmed hat. In a tandem master, it will be in one or both outlet ports and look like a brass seat. On most all American and foreign newer cars, the residual valve is usually incorporated with other valves in a "combination" valve. (More about the other valves later). This combination valve can be located on a stock vehicle by simply following the line out of the master cylinder until you arrive at a junction block. This block usually has two lines going in from the master and two lines going out, one to the front brakes and one to the rear brakes. Most commonly, the combination valve is found on the firewall, within a foot of the master, just beneath the master, or on the left frame rail near the lower "A" arm"

65fastbackretro, as I understand your last post, you've plumbed your new MC directly to the original '65 distrubution block (a simple 4-way "Tee"). By doing this you've negated the benefit of the dual system and MC, because both sides of the MC are now tied together, and with the new MC, you've totally eliminated the residual pressure valve that the drums need to overcome the return springs, hence the long pedal travel.
For a comprehensive view of the R.P.Valve, read:
http://books.google.com/books?id=5rW-ppyB_ugC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=residual+pressure+valve&source=web&ots=fbkAdjnzmq&sig=eEKiXNOgUikY_ND9qkHNCNFORoc&hl=en#PPA70,M1. Although this article doesn't mention the comb valve, it's still a good description, and describes more about why they were eventually phased out, but it doesn't say anything about overcoming the return springs.
http://www.hot-rod.com.au/builder/brakes.html says (among other things):
"Residual Pressure Valves are used in a both front and rear brake system as follows:

2 PSI Valves - These valves are used in a disc brake system only and are required when the master cylinder is at, or below, the height of the calipers. It's purpose is to act as an anti-siphon valve preventing the brake fluid from siphoning back into the master cylinder when the brake pedal is released. Even if the master cylinder is even or slightly above the calipers, put one in anyway. If you don't and you park on a hill, fluid will siphon! These valves are cheap insurance - put them in! NOTE: You will know if you need one of these valves if you had to pump the pedal twice to get a good pedal. See illustration for more.
10 PSI Valves - These valves are used in a drum brake system to prevent air from being ingested into the hydraulic system when you release the brake pedal. Typical wheel cylinder seals only seal when there is pressure behind them. Rapid release of the brake pedal creates a vacuum in the system which causes the seals to relax and air is ingested into the wheel cylinders. Maintaining 10 PSI in the system at all times prevents this. Some disc/drum master cylinders have 10 PSI residual pressure valves installed internally, some don't. If you're not sure, call us and we can tell you how to check. Also, some new style wheel cylinders have cup expanders which negate the need for the residual pressure valve. Either way, if you are not sure whether you have one or not, put one in. They are not cumulative and it won't hurt anything if you have two. Don't worry about brake drag, it takes roughly 75 PSI to overcome the return springs"

So I guess the bottom line is that ultrastang is right about the use of residual pressure valves because of the mc being lower than the wheel cylinders, but there is more to it than that.
I haven't touched on the other functions of the comb valve, but with a disc drum system you need a metering valve to apply pressure to the rear brakes first, and a protioning valve to adjust the bias from front to rear. Read about the combination valve at http://auto.howstuffworks.com/master-brake2.htm.
I know I've rambled all over in this post, but it's pretty complicated.
I made my Granada brakes work by using a Granada MC & a Granada (or equal) comb valve. They worked very well without any other valving. There is plenty of good info in the links above if you want to learn more.

Sorry for the lengthy post.
Later,
Dennis

I guess to clarify what I was saying about the RPVs in the Maverick/Granada disc/drum MCs...In the original Ford-produced MCs, you would have found the RPV installed in the secondary port, in the hole, just below the flare seat in the opening of the secondary side port.

Many of the newly-produced/rebuilt (aftermarket) copies of the Mav/Gran MCs are being sold through the parts stores without the RPVs being installed in them. I have numerous stock (Ford) distribution/proportioning valves in the shop ranging from early Mustangs, Fox-bodied Mustangs, Granadas, and from Lincoln Versailles. I have opened up at least one version from all these stock valves, and there were no RPVs present in any of them I've looked inside of.

The RPV is just basically a duck-billed component that's designed to let fluid flow out freely from the MC, but the "bill" of the valve closes off to resist the inrush of fluid trying to come back into the MC once the brake pedal is released, so this helps keep pressure applied for the next brake application.

It's easy to find out if the MC you have has a RPV in its port. Take a small diameter pin punch, or drill bit, and lightly insert it into the port. If it immediately stops, then there's a RPV present. If the punch or drill bit slides in a ways without meeting any resistance, then there is no RPV is in there. --but like a I said, if the MC was an origianl Ford-produced Mav/Gran unit the RPV would be in it, but many of the later rebuild/current parts store offerings of these MCs don't have the valves in them.

A stock distribution valve is designed for 4-wheel drums. A stock proportioning valve is designed for discs front/drums rear. Either of which has internal functions to delay fluid to the rear brakes to keep them from clamping before the front brakes activate. They also have a pressure differential valve inside to sense a brake component or line failure. --they do a combination of things designed specifically for the type of brakes they were made to function with.

If, for example, the caliper/wheel cylinder failed, the valve spool inside the stock valve body would shift to the side of least (hydraulic) resistance --the failed side of the brake circuit, and to trip the brake warning light (if you have one). Its function is to stop the flow of brake fluid to the failed side so that every time you step on the brakes, it doesn't continue to squirt raw brake fluid out the point of failure. If there was no devise to stop the fluid loss, you would keep losing fluid to the point it drained all the fluid out of the MC's reservoir and you would be left with no brakes.

A stock (Ford-produced) Granada proportioning valve for discs front/drums rear:

1. http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9139/granadaproportiongvalveci8.jpg

2. http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3976/granadaproportiongvalvefh7.jpg
To the left side of the valve, you'll see 3 ports. This is the primary side of the valve. All 3 ports are common to one another, and no RPVs are present. To the right, you'll see 2 ports. This is the secondary side to the rear brakes. You'll also notice that I've "gutted" the internals of the secondary side. These components are for the metering valve. The metering valve delays fluid to the rear brakes until a preset amount of hydraulic force overcomes the coil spring to shift the metering valve (the red anodized component) to allow fluid flow to the rear drums. Again, no RPV present.


(gutted) Proportioning valve from a 1990 (Fox) Mustang GT:

1. http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7492/1990mustanggtmcultrastahq8.jpg

2. Looking down the port on the secondary side of the Fox Mustang's disc/drum valve body. You can clearly see daylight through the port, denoting no RPV present in this valve body.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9683/1990mustanggtmcultrastaft0.jpg


Disc/drum MC from '90 5.0L Mustang GT, looking into the port of the MC's secondary side. No RPV present:
1. http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/32/1990mustanggtmcultrastacx0.jpg

2. Primary and secondary MC pistons removed for '90 Mustang GT MC, showing no presence of RPV in any of these components:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1980/1990mustanggtmcultrastavo1.jpg

Obviously, I haven't seen every example of every Ford-produced brake component that's ever rolled off the assembly line, but I'm just sharing what I have worked with and my observations of what components were or were not present in the ones I've dealt with, so I hope this helps clarify any uncertainty some may have about some of these components.

--Steve

Hmmm....
All the tech articles I've read say an RPV is necessary for drum brakes for 2 reasons:
1) to overcome the tension of the return spring
2) to keep the cup shaped seals in the wheel cylinder pushed against the walls so air can't be sucked past and into the system.

I never checked my original '65 MC, but i'm sure there was one in it. The '67 I have on the bench has an RPV in both ports.
The Granada replacement MC does not have an RPV in its drum port, so that function must be accomplished somewhere else.

65fastbackresto describes symptoms (soft pedal, long travel) which are consistant with those in the articles I linked describing no RPV.
He then goes on to say that he has his MC plumbed into the original '65 dsitrubution block. There is no functionality in that block. it is a simple block of brass with 4 holes- 1MC, 2 front wheels, and 1 rear. There are no springs, no wires, no switches, nothing.

I still think he needs to put in a Proportioning valve and an RP valve to make his setup work. Or at least before he does any thing else. The easiest way to do it is to use a stock type proportioning (combination) valve. It is what I did with the MC I had, and it worked great. All the Granada swap instructions I read before I did it said that, also. That's why I did it.

If I'm screwed up about the functions of the valves, at the very least I know you can't plumb both lines from a dual MC together, then separate them to the disc and drum side again and expect it to work. He needs some valves before he goes any further.
Later,
Dennis

Since you didn't use the comb valve, I think you're still going to need a metering valve.
Master Power Brakes has one, big $. Stainless Steel Brakes doesn't list any. Summit doesn't list them. Here's one on eBay, and ECI lists one.

I think if it was me, I'd put the RP valve in and see if it solves the problem first, before I spent $90 on a metering valve. If it doesn't solve it, you're gonna have to look deeper, and why spend money if you're gonna change something.
Like I said, all I did was the 1602 MC, and a junkyard '74 (+/-) Maverick comb valve. I put around 2-3 K miles on it (I don't drive it much) and 3 (I think) 1/2 day track sessions, and it worked. In fact, I kinda wish I hadn't changed to 4 wheel power discs, but that's another story.

I think you don't need the 2 lb valve, it's only for drain back purposes if the MC is mounted low.

Keep us posted.
Later,
Dennis

dharrelson said:

Hmmm....
All the tech articles I've read say an RPV is necessary for drum brakes for 2 reasons:
1) to overcome the tension of the return spring
2) to keep the cup shaped seals in the wheel cylinder pushed against the walls so air can't be sucked past and into the system.

I never checked my original '65 MC, but i'm sure there was one in it. The '67 I have on the bench has an RPV in both ports.
The Granada replacement MC does not have an RPV in its drum port, so that function must be accomplished somewhere else.

65fastbackresto describes symptoms (soft pedal, long travel) which are consistant with those in the articles I linked describing no RPV.
He then goes on to say that he has his MC plumbed into the original '65 dsitrubution block. There is no functionality in that block. it is a simple block of brass with 4 holes- 1MC, 2 front wheels, and 1 rear. There are no springs, no wires, no switches, nothing.

Dennis

Click to expand...

Dennis,

I understand your thinking and reasoning, and I don't want you to think I'm trying to get into a pissing contest or anything like that. We are just having a simple discussion here in weighing in on what the possible problems could be related to 65fastbackresto's application.

If a (drum) wheel cylinder draws air in, then that would more likely be a function of a bad seal or scratched wheel cylinder bore. As long as the outer boot is in good shape and keeps dirt out so the seal isn't damaged, and debris isn't migrating into the interior of the wheel cylinder through the brake plumbing, the two cup seals inside should remain firmly planted against the pistons, due to the (relatively) large coil spring inside each wheel cylinder that pushes the cup seals against the pistons.
'68 Mustang shop manual photo link of wheel cylinder exploded view:
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/706/1968mustangmcanddistribcx8.jpg

65fastbackresto related; "I can bleed the drum side of the system and the pedal never gets any firmer, but I can keep bleeding the disc side and it gets better the more I jack with it."

Not to say it isn't a function of a lack of an RPV, but in my dealings with various brake swaps/adaptations and component changes/additions, if you make no further component changes, and you can get the brakes firmer (with the same existing parts) by bleeding the brakes, then in my experience, it was a function of air still in the system that's causing a mushy pedal with excessive travel.

Here are some photos from a '68 Mustang shop manual with diagrams and internal breakdowns of the MC and the pressure differential valves and their internals:
1. http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/2963/1968mustangmcanddistriban3.jpg

2. http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5645/1968mustangmcanddistribsg5.jpg

In the previous photos, you can see where the RPV is in the MC port, but you won't find any inside the pressure valves as evidenced by the diagrams. The Granadas are not exact to this, but are configured much in the same way as far as the basic layout is concerned.

In the original Granada MC configuration (from Ford), the RPV would have been in the same place as an early Mustang's --in the MC port. But again, I've observed some of the newer parts counter Granada MCs that were without the RPV in them, and like the early Mustangs, their valve bodies do not contain the RPV either in the various Granada proportioning valves I've taken apart.

If he doesn't get much change from bleeding the rear drums, but does (progressively) get a firmer pedal each time the front calipers are bled, then it sounds like there is still air trapped inside them. --The RPV would be for the secondary side (the rear drums) and would not apply to the primary side (the discs). Since he relates the rear brakes act normally and the primary side gets better each time he "jacks" with it.

Without an actual photo of 65fastbackresto's front brake setup, I have to ask...is it possible you have the calipers on the wrong sides (upside down)? --which would make it difficult to get the air out and would keep a fair amount of air trapped inside while trying to bleed them out.

--Steve

Steve,
I agree that there is nothing resembling the "duck billed" rpv inthe comb valves. On top of that, numerous articles I've read (especially during the last couple days ) make no mention of it at all. You think then that it's just kinda been decided it's not necessary at all? I've never seen an original Granada MC. If it was in there, and it's not in the service replacement, then the function was superflous apparently.
Getting back to the original problem, then, Maybe I misunderstood.

65fastbackresto related; "I can bleed the drum side of the system and the pedal never gets any firmer, but I can keep bleeding the disc side and it gets better the more I jack with it."

Click to expand...

I thought he meant the fronts were up and OK, but the rears wouldn't bleed. But I see what you mean, if the fronts get a little beter, then soften up the problem is there.

Without an actual photo of 65fastbackresto's front brake setup, I have to ask...is it possible you have the calipers on the wrong sides (upside down)? --which would make it difficult to get the air out and would keep a fair amount of air trapped inside while trying to bleed them out.

Click to expand...

I wish I'd remembered this before suggesting buying more stuff.
I was hung up on the rear system, I guess. That's the first thing to check, though.

65fastbackresto, look at the calipers, and make sure the bleeders are on top. If not, they're on the wrong sides.
Later,
Dennis