Melbourne area stangs

94_Teal_GT · Oct 20, 2003

baglock1 said:
The front end felt like the tires were coated in velcro and I was on a carpet but that rear end was slicker than snot. It was just insanely out of balance.

Interesting analogy

baglock1 said:
Oh well. Time to spend money on the rear end now... and then the brakes...and then the tranny... and then the motor... and then the...

What do you have done to the rear right now? Just the Coilovers? I couldn't see under your car.

baglock1 · Oct 21, 2003

94_Teal_GT said:
What do you have done to the rear right now? Just the Coilovers? I couldn't see under your car.

And the LCA's. The lowest point of the car (other than the tires, duh) are the mufflers. I'd guess them to be about 3" off the ground (but I haven't measured).

94_Teal_GT · Oct 21, 2003

baglock1 said:
And the LCA's. The lowest point of the car (other than the tires, duh) are the mufflers. I'd guess them to be about 3" off the ground (but I haven't measured).

3" ground clearance

Are you going to(eventually) move some weight to the rear? Like the battery. Maybe it's a little light in the rear now

baglock1 · Oct 21, 2003

94_Teal_GT said:
Are you going to(eventually) move some weight to the rear? Like the battery. Maybe it's a little light in the rear now

I know it's light in the rear right now, but it's against my religion to add unnecessary weight. The battery will eventually be transfered to the rear but right now I just need to fix the suspension. I'm confident that it is an issue of not getting enough grip from the rear. Besides, reducing weight increases lateral grip, believe it or not (at least according to the math ).

Glenn88lx · Oct 21, 2003

baglock1 said:
I know it's light in the rear right now, but it's against my religion to add unnecessary weight. The battery will eventually be transfered to the rear but right now I just need to fix the suspension. I'm confident that it is an issue of not getting enough grip from the rear. Besides, reducing weight increases lateral grip, believe it or not (at least according to the math ).

Dan,
Saw THIS in the classifieds and thought there might be some items you would be interested in. Got a great price on the Griggs TA.

droptop93 · Oct 22, 2003

Suspension ???

Alright corner guru's, I need help.

Here's the deal, I need new shocks and struts. The struts have play and are eating up my tires, and the shocks have no shock left and are causing the car to bottom out and chew up the tires there too.

So I figure while I have everything pulled apart, I might as well put in some aftermarket performance springs also. Here's where all the questions begin.

First off, there's so many different choices, I can't even figure out where to begin to start narrowing things down...but I'll start with springs:

I've heard a lot of good things about the H&R springs (both the sport and race pieces), but...besides ride height differences between the two, can't find information about their other differences. I do want to lower it for the handling benefits, but not to the point where I would severely effect my straightline performance (I'm not a big autox guy, I prefer to go straight), or take out speedbumps with my bumper. I'm also not looking for something that will feel like a cadillac when taking an I-4 on ramp at more than excessive speeds. So what would you guys suggest? H&R, FMS, Eibach, Steeda?

As to shocks and struts, I've heard a lot of people praising the Bilstein shocks/struts. But why? Yes they do have a lifetime warranty and can be revalved...but wouldn't an adjustable setup (KYB AGX, Tokiko Illumina, etc) be just as good if not better...and for possibly cheaper?

One more thing, at what point will I HAVE to get C/C plates? I know I should have them regardless...but at what point do they become necessary to avoid excessive tire wear?

And I'm trying to do this on a a somewhat limited (read no MM or Griggs / coilover stuff) budget to leave funds for my welder...so keep that in mind

Thanks for reading my novel, and thanks in advance for any insight!

lx89stang · Oct 22, 2003

I havent been to palm bay in a while I go to ucf. There used to be a good turn out at Andretti Park..across the street from palm bay high and . i used to race at the compound on sundays. by baside lake probably about 3yrs ago..I dont know if thats still going on..I know there is a few clubs over here in otown and a lot of ricers to race.
mike

Glenn88lx · Oct 22, 2003

droptop93 said:
...I've heard a lot of good things about the H&R springs (both the sport and race pieces), but...besides ride height differences between the two, can't find information about their other differences...

...So what would you guys suggest? H&R, FMS, Eibach, Steeda?...

...As to shocks and struts, I've heard a lot of people praising the Bilstein shocks/struts. But why? Yes they do have a lifetime warranty and can be revalved...but wouldn't an adjustable setup (KYB AGX, Tokiko Illumina, etc) be just as good if not better...and for possibly cheaper?...

...One more thing, at what point will I HAVE to get C/C plates? I know I should have them regardless...but at what point do they become necessary to avoid excessive tire wear?...

Droptop93, I will try to answer as best I can to the questions you posed above. the maker of the springs is probably not as important as the spring rate, so long as they are good quality springs. Eibach prolines are too soft and the Sportlines are too low. You want your front springs to be at least 650#-750# rate to control body roll or an even higher rate if you want really good handling in a Mustang. Rear springs need to be upgraded to something along the lines of 250#-280# with stock suspension components or even higher with aftermarket parts that reduce binding, i.e. torque arms or 5 links.

Stiffer springs require dampers that are valved correctly, i.e. softer on compression and stiffer on rebound to handle the higher rate springs. KYB Gas-Adjusts are El- cheapo stock replacements and garbage for good performance. I had a set, hated them. the AGX's are not a whole lot better and can be very harsh, especially with stiffer springs. Tokicos are a good bit better but the Illuminas adjust both compression and rebound simultaneously so they are not all that great with stiffer springs.

Bilsteins are the best of both worlds for smooth street riding and increased performance with upgraded springs. They would be my first choice for a moderate performance increase with slightly stiffer springs. The Koni Yellow SA's would be my next choice as they add a measure of adjustability and will work well with upgraded springs. If you want all out handling with superior adjustability to compensate for anything up to and including very high rate racing springs the Koni DA's are the way to go, but you will lose a bit of street civility.

The C/C plates and a quality alignment will be needed ANYTIME you swap out your springs for different rates/ride heights. This is to insure you get the additional performance your paying for with the spring change and to prevent poor handling and excessive tire wear due to incorrect alignment angles.

If you want the best bang for your buck I would invest in a set of Bullit springs and shocks. They are perhaps the lowest cost/highest return in handling suspension kit you can buy. You will notice a dramatic increase in the handling without hurting your ride quality. They will only drop the car about an inch so your suspension geometry won't be adversely affected. A good set of C/C plates will compensate for the additional length of the struts while allowing you to optimize your alignment angles.

I hope this helps with your decison.

94_Teal_GT · Oct 22, 2003

droptop93 said:
Alright corner guru's, I need help.
So what would you guys suggest? H&R, FMS, Eibach, Steeda?

One more thing, at what point will I HAVE to get C/C plates? I know I should have them regardless...but at what point do they become necessary to avoid excessive tire wear?

I'm NO expert, but here is my two 1/2 cents. Don't bother with the Steeda if you are considering the FMS C springs. They are the same rate springs (650# front and 200-300#(I think) rear.) You can get FMS C's for $130-ish and Steeda Sports for $169-ish, that 39 bucks is for the blue paint, I guess . I bought them because, when I went to order MAC springs from Holcomb, MAC was out of stock so w/o doing any further research I took the Steedas for the same money. FWIW I'm running a set of '99 GT take-off struts/shocks, not a good idea Good struts/shocks are on the list of things to buy, Maybe at income tax time.

This is MY experience only! I don't have CC plates and have had the springs installed for over a year. BUT my car had a problem with wearing out the outside treads on the fronts(0 deg to +.1 camber), since I've owned the car. Since the spring swap(-.6 deg now), I haven't had any adverse tire wear, but I'm sure I'm losing some handling potential by not having the adjustability at my disposal. They are 'on the list' of things to buy. I'd recommend buying them right away, they can't hurt.

94_Teal_GT · Oct 22, 2003

baglock1 said:
I know it's light in the rear right now, but it's against my religion to add unnecessary weight. The battery will eventually be transfered to the rear but right now I just need to fix the suspension. I'm confident that it is an issue of not getting enough grip from the rear. Besides, reducing weight increases lateral grip, believe it or not (at least according to the math ).

I wasn't advocating adding weight. That'd just be silly. I was just eyeballing that Datsun 510 that was running EM. That car(can you call it that, since it has no body?) looked like a beast to drive.

94_Teal_GT · Oct 22, 2003

Attn Glenn

Ok so call me a PW, I don't care.

Glenn, did you notice that you and I made the 'hit parade'? My fun ride across the skid pad video is on the SoloII site and your run in the rain is there also. Yours is mislabelled as Car#409.

droptop93 · Oct 23, 2003

Glenn88lx said:
If you want the best bang for your buck I would invest in a set of Bullit springs and shocks. They are perhaps the lowest cost/highest return in handling suspension kit you can buy. You will notice a dramatic increase in the handling without hurting your ride quality. They will only drop the car about an inch so your suspension geometry won't be adversely affected. A good set of C/C plates will compensate for the additional length of the struts while allowing you to optimize your alignment angles.

As in, for a newer bullitt mustang? Would I get the bullitt springs/shocks from Ford, or are there other places also? Didn't know they would fit into a fox...shows what I know about suspension

Also, what are good caster/camber settings for street use? I'd lean more towards the rubber saving side than the performance side...have any ideas, or a place I can do some reading on the subject?

Thanks again Glenn, always a big help!

Click to expand...

Glenn88lx · Oct 23, 2003

droptop93 said:
Glenn88lx said:

If you want the best bang for your buck I would invest in a set of Bullit springs and shocks. They are perhaps the lowest cost/highest return in handling suspension kit you can buy. You will notice a dramatic increase in the handling without hurting your ride quality. They will only drop the car about an inch so your suspension geometry won't be adversely affected. A good set of C/C plates will compensate for the additional length of the struts while allowing you to optimize your alignment angles.

As in, for a newer bullitt mustang? Would I get the bullitt springs/shocks from Ford, or are there other places also? Didn't know they would fit into a fox...shows what I know about suspension

Also, what are good caster/camber settings for street use? I'd lean more towards the rubber saving side than the performance side...have any ideas, or a place I can do some reading on the subject?

Thanks again Glenn, always a big help!

Click to expand...

You can check out THIS thread for the Bullitt setup.

Click to expand...

94_Teal_GT · Oct 24, 2003

Here is a handy chart. It lists most of the spring rates for popular lowering springs. Spring Rates

Jims5543 · Oct 28, 2003

Welp, I sold my GT Vert. The good part is I sold it to a friend so I still get to see and and know its in good hands. I have not been here in ages. (super busy) But I wanted to stop by and say hello to the Dans and the Melbourne Autocross gang. I saw Dan running his white GT a couple of weeks ago. Dan looking good. Does Eric Autocross anymore?

Anyways just wanted to say hello and hope everyones Mustangs are running strong.

Jim

Glenn88lx · Oct 28, 2003

Jims5543 said:
Welp, I sold my GT Vert. The good part is I sold it to a friend so I still get to see and and know its in good hands. I have not been here in ages. (super busy) But I wanted to stop by and say hello to the Dans and the Melbourne Autocross gang. I saw Dan running his white GT a couple of weeks ago. Dan looking good. Does Eric Autocross anymore?

Anyways just wanted to say hello and hope everyones Mustangs are running strong.

Jim

Hey Jim, how goes it? I hope the new Mini is running good.

Are you going to be hitting some of the upcoming autocrosses? I just got back form the MSCC event in Gainesville and it was a real blast. We used the Gainesville Raceway test track for the event. Speeds up to and exceeding 80mph were possible on the back straight. There is another 2 day event there this coming weekend if your interested. Saturday is under MSCC rules and Sunday is SCCA rules.

Hope to see you and the RX-7 (or Mini) at an event soon.

Xian · Oct 29, 2003

baglock1 said:
Can you say, "In the weeds?" I was pretty dissapointed in the car overall. The front end felt like the tires were coated in velcro and I was on a carpet but that rear end was slicker than snot. It was just insanely out of balance.

Oh well. Time to spend money on the rear end now... and then the brakes...and then the tranny... and then the motor... and then the...

Hey Baglock! I haven't been on Stangnet for quite some time but saw your post and thought I'd offer my $0.02

There was an article somewhat recently (perhaps in the last year) in Grassroots Motorsports about the rear suspension binding issue in Stangs... if the rear is binding b/c of the lower height you're running that would cause the effective rear spring rate to rapidly approach infinity. That might be one of the prime reasons for the really loose feel to it right now...?

Anyway, just an idea and from an import owner at that

baglock1 · Oct 30, 2003

Xian said:
Hey Baglock! I haven't been on Stangnet for quite some time but saw your post and thought I'd offer my $0.02

There was an article somewhat recently (perhaps in the last year) in Grassroots Motorsports about the rear suspension binding issue in Stangs... if the rear is binding b/c of the lower height you're running that would cause the effective rear spring rate to rapidly approach infinity. That might be one of the prime reasons for the really loose feel to it right now...?

Anyway, just an idea and from an import owner at that

Hey Christian! Man, I really do need to get up to Road Atlanta or Roebling one of these days to have some fun with y'all.

As far as the lowering issue, it's one I am all too aware of. The Mustang has so many problems, another one won't hurt though. When deciding how low to take it, the effects to the roll center and bind concerns figured into it greatly. I feel that the depth to which I dropped her is just far enough without amplifying the problems inherent to the chassis. However, now that I'm running coilovers all the way around, lifting it up a bit is pretty simple and tuning is of course in the future.

I think I found a major contributor to the problem though. While under the car this week, I discovered that the pinion snubber (something I had meant to change and not gotten around to) was less than 1" away from it's contact plate. When it hit during aggressive driving, it acted as an artificial spring rate, upping the rear wheel rate considerably and contibuting to the oversteer condition I was suffering. I've since "modified" it. While track time has not been available to support my hypothesis, "spirited driving" on the way to work on the local on/off ramps has given me hope.

Either way, my current setup in the rear is barely better than stock and stock sucks moose balls. Future mods are in the works...

The new job has me busy as hell, but when I get a chance, I plan on getting intimate with Chin Motorsports and I hope to see you guys then.

Dan

Xian · Oct 31, 2003

baglock1 said:
Hey Christian! Man, I really do need to get up to Road Atlanta or Roebling one of these days to have some fun with y'all.

As far as the lowering issue, it's one I am all too aware of. The Mustang has so many problems, another one won't hurt though. When deciding how low to take it, the effects to the roll center and bind concerns figured into it greatly. I feel that the depth to which I dropped her is just far enough without amplifying the problems inherent to the chassis. However, now that I'm running coilovers all the way around, lifting it up a bit is pretty simple and tuning is of course in the future.

I think I found a major contributor to the problem though. While under the car this week, I discovered that the pinion snubber (something I had meant to change and not gotten around to) was less than 1" away from it's contact plate. When it hit during aggressive driving, it acted as an artificial spring rate, upping the rear wheel rate considerably and contibuting to the oversteer condition I was suffering. I've since "modified" it. While track time has not been available to support my hypothesis, "spirited driving" on the way to work on the local on/off ramps has given me hope.

Either way, my current setup in the rear is barely better than stock and stock sucks moose balls. Future mods are in the works...

The new job has me busy as hell, but when I get a chance, I plan on getting intimate with Chin Motorsports and I hope to see you guys then.

Dan

Hey Dan! Yeah, I'm hoping to get back to Roebling sometime next year but there's some stuff that I want done to the car safety wise before tracking it... oh, FWIW, I have another new toy! It's a 93 Civic Hatchcrap with the requisite suspension work and an engine swap. Way better handling and a little faster than the Hype R

So it was suspension bind? (well, not exactly bind but still lack of correct suspension travel) Cool... glad that I wasn't completely out in left field on my guess!

So you're going to start tracking it soon? Are you going to do any wheel to wheel racing or just HPDE's?

Christian

baglock1 · Oct 31, 2003

Xian said:
So you're going to start tracking it soon? Are you going to do any wheel to wheel racing or just HPDE's?

For now, just OT. Work won't allow a serious run in a points series. As soon as I get a normal job with normal hours, I'm going to seriously look at the NASA American Iron series.

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