Mods or Save?
- Thread starter Silvr04GT
- Start date
I'd vote for moding. Everyone and the uncle wants to just slap a blower on it, save the cash and do some motor or suspension mod's.
A lot more of the mod's in your sig are looks than anything else. So what's the point of making power without and traction or bad reaction time's. And if you put some stuff into your motor that will also work well with a KB, you'll see a lot bigger gains once you do step up to blower.
Just my .02
A lot more of the mod's in your sig are looks than anything else. So what's the point of making power without and traction or bad reaction time's. And if you put some stuff into your motor that will also work well with a KB, you'll see a lot bigger gains once you do step up to blower.
Just my .02
Marcus said:
Good point. But I'm trying to think of other motor mods I could do that would work well with a blower and I'm coming up short! I can do cams, but I would need blower cams and on a NA motor those wouldn't be to good would they?
Basically if I continue to mod until I'm done school I will be putting a lot of focus on suspension. In my original plans I wanted to have these mods done over the next 2 years:
-Blistein Shocks and Struts
-MM SFCs
-MM Panhard Bar
-MM LCAs
-FRPP ULAs
-FRPP Aluminum Driveshaft
-Bullitt Brakes (with Hawk Pads and Power Slot Rotors)
The more comments the better, so let's here what you guys have to say!
Silvr04GT said:
Uppers and lowers in the rear would do a nice improvement. Definatly need SFC's before a blower goes in there. Brakes are good and tubular front stuff. As for motor I don't know what's good for a mod motor, but the usual are heads and intake something that can flow good numbers and will take advantage of that blower when you get it. Cam's are cheap for a normal motor but not so for a mod motor. So yes you might want to wait on the cam's till you have the blower.
I still only have a stock 302 for my car, but I've built a car with full susp, cage, etc that will handle a nice amount of power once I get it.
I figure it's better to build a motor/blower for the car, than to play catch up and build the car for the motor.
I'm kind of at the same crossroads as you and here's what i'm planning. Forge the bottom end first. Sure you may get away with a stock bottom end for awhile but in the end you are limiting yourself in boost. Eventually luck will run out and KABOOM. Do it right the first time and then save for the Kenne Bell. My .02.
Marcus said:
Since I have a 99 and newer car I have the PI heads which flow pretty well already. The intake is completely replaced by the KB so that is not worth spending money on. Tubular K-Members are great but you have to have tubular A-arms and for that you need a coilover suspension, which I don't really know if I need since it's more a street car than a track or drag car.
But if I add up all the approximate prices of that stuff (without the Power Slot Rotors and Hawk Pads (just the regular Ford ones) it comes out to approximately $2542.86 plus tax so $2700 in Alberta and $2900 in Sask. So that puts me almost half way to a blower. (For some reason I thought all those parts would cost more...) I guess that's not to bad.
Cause if I save up for a blower it'll take a pretty significant amount of time cause of school. If was working all summer it would be much easier but I have my drum corps thing so I'm gone from late May till mid August. Maybe I should keep modding. Cause if I don't my car is going to stay exactly like it is now for the next 2 or 3 years. After I'm done school I could always take a loan for a blower and my car would be WAY more prepared for it.
EDIT - Forgot to add the price of the shocks and struts in there, probably about $800 - $900 for those so getting close to $3500 + tax so like 3750 Alberta and 4000 Saskatchewan which is more than half way to blower land! The shocks and struts will have to be done within a year because of the lower springs wearing out my stock stuff to. So in some ways it's an irrelevant cost in this debate.
TweekedGT said:
Well here's my thoughts on that. At the time you do the bottom end, you'll wanna use lower compression pistons so you can run more boost and since the head will be off you'd want some blower cams too. And that would probably be what like $3000 for a job like that? Then you gotta save up another $7000 for a 9 psi KB. So in the end that's like $10000. And in the meantime your built block will be a dog cause of the low compression and blower tuned cams! That's why I kinda thought get the blower run it till the bottom end gives out rebuild it with all those parts and you'll get huge gains from them.
Do what I am doing. I am running 12psi on the stocker for now. Yes I know borrowed time yada yada, heard it before. The KB 2.2 kit @ 9 psi is really safe with Tim's tune.
The thing you are forgetting though is KB doesn't sell the kit the user. It must be professionally installed. So add onto that the price of install of around 1000 bucks. Plus a tune. That was one reason I chose to go with the Novi. I could do it myself.
As long as the tune is good (read) safe, you will be fine. My tuner hasn't lost a motor yet, in what 3 years since the Tech Transfer from Ford came out. I plan on running this combo until I have the funds available for a rebuild. I plan to do it all at once. If I have to wait anouther 2 or three years so be it. I will still be the only one here making over 600 RWHP.
Let's see:
MPH Stroker 3695
Paxton A/A intercooler 1400
GI Joe 8 Rib w 2.6 RR Pulley 635 (20 psi)
MPH Blower cams 550
SCT Excalibrator 325
Total 6605
Add to that what I have into the car already and I could buy anouther GT. The point is, you have to start somewhere.
As the old saying goes. You play you got to pay. Nothing in the HP game is cheap. Resign yourself to that.
I started with suspension mods first. Knowing that I would eventually have the blower on. Once that was done I had a good place to be for the blower. Now that it is on I can make the car ready for more.
The thing you are forgetting though is KB doesn't sell the kit the user. It must be professionally installed. So add onto that the price of install of around 1000 bucks. Plus a tune. That was one reason I chose to go with the Novi. I could do it myself.
As long as the tune is good (read) safe, you will be fine. My tuner hasn't lost a motor yet, in what 3 years since the Tech Transfer from Ford came out. I plan on running this combo until I have the funds available for a rebuild. I plan to do it all at once. If I have to wait anouther 2 or three years so be it. I will still be the only one here making over 600 RWHP.
Let's see:
MPH Stroker 3695
Paxton A/A intercooler 1400
GI Joe 8 Rib w 2.6 RR Pulley 635 (20 psi)
MPH Blower cams 550
SCT Excalibrator 325
Total 6605
Add to that what I have into the car already and I could buy anouther GT. The point is, you have to start somewhere.
As the old saying goes. You play you got to pay. Nothing in the HP game is cheap. Resign yourself to that.
I started with suspension mods first. Knowing that I would eventually have the blower on. Once that was done I had a good place to be for the blower. Now that it is on I can make the car ready for more.
IMO.
speaking of engine mods only.
on the mod motor, boltons get you basically no where N/A.
assuming that you will have to pay for install grahm since you havnt done much of this before. for engine related mods only you can do the following
tb 500
maf 500
coldair 500
new plenum 500
cams 1000
longtubes 500
x pipe 500
catback 500
and gain like 50 hp maybe. 4 grand for 50 hp, dosnt sound great to me.
so to me modding the engine is a waste of time, until after you have a power adder when the said mods will gain you more than 2 hp each.
you could do the suspention first, but IMO thats mega overkill on a stock 2v, and you'll be into 4 grand for your car to go a few tenths faster, again a waste of money IMO.
i'm just as big of a supporter of MPH as joe is, and he is right they have never lost a stock longblock motor with their tunes. and joes car is running fantastically, but anything over 400 hp and that thing IS on borrowed time, eventually it will let go(rods will bend) regardless of the tune, the question is how long.
and if you are saving for a few years, to get the blower kit, obviously you will not have 4gs cash to drop into a new engine if it goes. and depending on what lets go, you might be out ALOT of money.. alot of people are like, well if it goes, i'll just put in new pistons and rods then.. that usually dosnt happen.. for example, if you throw a rod (wich is the most likely on a boosted car), the following will happen.. rod(or 2) will break, piston, wich is no longer connected to the crank will fly up and smash the head, wrecking the valves, and possibly the entire head, the rod will most likely fly out through the side of the block, ruining the shortblock, when the rod hits the block there is a chance the crank snaps, and so on.. so yea you might get luckey and just burn a hole in a piston, but it could cost you into buying a full longblock (alot more than 2-3 k) plus install and so on, you could be out 10 k in a hurry if you dont do the work yourself.
with all that said.. boltons are a waste of time, quick power might end up costing you WAY more in the long run.. sooo
what i would do, is save up for a forged bottom end and blower cams first.
the car will run fine on the blower cams, it will definately make more power than stock, just wont make quite as much as N/A cams, you might only make 15 hp more than stock, but who cares your building for the blower.
spend your 3k for a forged short block, another 1000 for cams and valve springs. and strap a 150 shot on it, the car will be plenty fast and you will have no danger of blowing anything up, and the nitrous will make some mad power with the blower cams(we call them blower cams, but think of them more as power adder cams).. then you can either save for the blower, or do some suspention mods, either way. and go from there, the car will be fast as hell like that (russ's car) then when you get your blower, head over to the classifieds, and sell the n20 kit(or keep it and run a 75 shot ontop of the blower, for a little extra cooling and power)
speaking of engine mods only.
on the mod motor, boltons get you basically no where N/A.
assuming that you will have to pay for install grahm since you havnt done much of this before. for engine related mods only you can do the following
tb 500
maf 500
coldair 500
new plenum 500
cams 1000
longtubes 500
x pipe 500
catback 500
and gain like 50 hp maybe. 4 grand for 50 hp, dosnt sound great to me.
so to me modding the engine is a waste of time, until after you have a power adder when the said mods will gain you more than 2 hp each.
you could do the suspention first, but IMO thats mega overkill on a stock 2v, and you'll be into 4 grand for your car to go a few tenths faster, again a waste of money IMO.
i'm just as big of a supporter of MPH as joe is, and he is right they have never lost a stock longblock motor with their tunes. and joes car is running fantastically, but anything over 400 hp and that thing IS on borrowed time, eventually it will let go(rods will bend) regardless of the tune, the question is how long.
and if you are saving for a few years, to get the blower kit, obviously you will not have 4gs cash to drop into a new engine if it goes. and depending on what lets go, you might be out ALOT of money.. alot of people are like, well if it goes, i'll just put in new pistons and rods then.. that usually dosnt happen.. for example, if you throw a rod (wich is the most likely on a boosted car), the following will happen.. rod(or 2) will break, piston, wich is no longer connected to the crank will fly up and smash the head, wrecking the valves, and possibly the entire head, the rod will most likely fly out through the side of the block, ruining the shortblock, when the rod hits the block there is a chance the crank snaps, and so on.. so yea you might get luckey and just burn a hole in a piston, but it could cost you into buying a full longblock (alot more than 2-3 k) plus install and so on, you could be out 10 k in a hurry if you dont do the work yourself.
with all that said.. boltons are a waste of time, quick power might end up costing you WAY more in the long run.. sooo
what i would do, is save up for a forged bottom end and blower cams first.
the car will run fine on the blower cams, it will definately make more power than stock, just wont make quite as much as N/A cams, you might only make 15 hp more than stock, but who cares your building for the blower.
spend your 3k for a forged short block, another 1000 for cams and valve springs. and strap a 150 shot on it, the car will be plenty fast and you will have no danger of blowing anything up, and the nitrous will make some mad power with the blower cams(we call them blower cams, but think of them more as power adder cams).. then you can either save for the blower, or do some suspention mods, either way. and go from there, the car will be fast as hell like that (russ's car) then when you get your blower, head over to the classifieds, and sell the n20 kit(or keep it and run a 75 shot ontop of the blower, for a little extra cooling and power)
Green4.6GT said:
I agree with some of that and disagree with some of it. I agree on building a stronger motor, but I also believe in building a stronger car. It's no different to the motor, whats the point of having the power if the car can't take it. Thats why you get people sticking blowers on things and running a tiny bit faster than before. So if he put's the blower on and run's slow cause he's spinning to ****, and bad 60's, etc, he's gonna be pissed. Yeah 4 tenths doesn't sound like much to some people, but in drag racing 4 tenths is a huge amount and well worth some cash. Your 60 foot is the most important part of your run, so why ruin the run by having bad launch's.
So I'd put the money into the motor and the suspension, and if you want to stick on a few bolt on's along the way. The exhaust stuff will work good with a blower, as will cold air/TB, etc. And at least you'll get something along the way cause again 50hp is a huge amount. If you can gain 1hp it's worth it, so why not 50.
As for those prices if your paying that much your taking something up the ass. I could have got a throttle body for that car for $50 a month or so ago. And even brand new, stuff's still cheaper than that. And the cold air/plenum/TB/MAF is all stuff that's not very wearable so theres no point in not buying it used.
And lastly Silvr04GT I'm not positive on this with a 99+ but with a fox and SN95, you can still run stock A-arms with a tubular K-member. As well you can run tubular A-arms and run a stock spring you don't have to run coil-overs, most people just would rather have them. And get yourself the SFC's first off, that should be the first thing on anyone's list before adding any power.
Marcus said:
for 96+ you need to buy the tubular a arms along with the k member, so coilovers need to happen.. as for the prices, i was just giving a rough "installed" price, grahm dosnt buy stuff used, nor does he install it himself so those prices are pretty well right on. and 99% of what he buys is right from ford, he is a sucker for ford parts lol.
and my arguement is more of the power for dollar, i totally agree that 1 hp is worth it, wich is why my plenum is ported, its a ton of work for maybe 2 hp.. but why spend 4grand on 50 hp when you can spend 4 grand for several hundred is my thinking..
again i agree on building a good car, however, horse power is fun, no matter how you slice it.. id rather have a 900 hp car that spins through the 1/8 and runs 12's than a 450 hp car with a drag suspention that runs 12's.. having a car that runs good times is one thing, but having something that is a blast to drive is much more important to me as i spend 6 months on the road, and 3-10 days at the track.. more hp is more fun
build the engine first, then the car later IMO, and 99+ stangs hook just fine on stockish suspention with UCA/LCA's and some stickey tires (red2000GT is cutting 1.8s on an otherwise stock suspention)
i have maybe $2000 into my car as of now ... thats everything .... and i should be in the 13's this year for sure and my cam's are actually sopose to be pretty good blower cam's if i ever decide to get a blower 
Green4.6GT said:for 96+ you need to buy the tubular a arms along with the k member, so coilovers need to happen.. as for the prices, i was just giving a rough "installed" price, grahm dosnt buy stuff used, nor does he install it himself so those prices are pretty well right on. and 99% of what he buys is right from ford, he is a sucker for ford parts lol.
and my arguement is more of the power for dollar, i totally agree that 1 hp is worth it, wich is why my plenum is ported, its a ton of work for maybe 2 hp.. but why spend 4grand on 50 hp when you can spend 4 grand for several hundred is my thinking..
again i agree on building a good car, however, horse power is fun, no matter how you slice it.. id rather have a 900 hp car that spins through the 1/8 and runs 12's than a 450 hp car with a drag suspention that runs 12's.. having a car that runs good times is one thing, but having something that is a blast to drive is much more important to me as i spend 6 months on the road, and 3-10 days at the track.. more hp is more fun
build the engine first, then the car later IMO, and 99+ stangs hook just fine on stockish suspention with UCA/LCA's and some stickey tires (red2000GT is cutting 1.8s on an otherwise stock suspention)
Well if he'll only buy ford parts then thats too bad, most the aftermarket stuff is a lot better than Ford Racing. Same with the used stuff, you can't be in this hobby and think that it's not good enough to be on your car. Unless you've got money coming out you know where. I've spent 12K on my car in the last 2 years and It'd be over 20K if I didn't buy some things used.
As for having 900hp but not seeing any of it. I don't see the point, spinning the tires was cool in high school after that it became uncool. And I don't see the point of spending cash on power that you never see or use. If you run the same as a guy with half the power, then you've paid for a lot of power your not using and people laugh at you for spinning half the track. I do understand what you saying though, but even in a street car I'd rather hook than spin. Donuts and burnout arn't cool anymore they're just what you make fun of the high schoolers for.
And yep, build the motor, I said already I think only LCA and Uppers for the rear susp.
You can't get a K-member with spring perches like with the fox? I know you can for the SN-95's I've seen them and they fit all the way to 99 I think.
Anywho that's my opinion.
Wow these are like the longest posts we've had in forever!
Although I do like buying Ford parts, I like to get the best. I wouldn't mind some used parts but I haven't seen a lot of the stuff I've done available used. And Marcus if you've got deals on 99+ parts over there drop me emails! The parts guy I deal with out of Winnipeg has been hard to get ahold of lately. I'm definitely one of those customers that likes to shop at the same place all the time, especially when I know I'm getting a great price.
Back to the brand thing I could have gotten some Steeda CC Plates but I got MM, much better brand. Also if you look at all the stuff I listed when I made up my little mod list there, the only Ford parts on there were UCAs (which are recommended by Maximum Motorsports), the Aluminum Driveshaft, which seems to be the driveshaft of choice on these boards and the Bullitt Brakes. All those parts from Ford are good value and as long as you get them from the right places there are a good price. All my other suspension parts were MM and the shocks and struts were Blistein, which is definitely the top brand in shocks and struts.
Also in terms of installing stuff, I'm learning a lot of stuff from Russ when he comes and helps me install mods. I mean last year when we installed my springs I was totally clueless and if you ask Russ about the CC plate install I was much more helpful!
And in terms of the insatiability of the listed parts:
-MAF (pretty easy to install)
-TB (I can deal with four bolts and a throttle linkage)
-Coldair (again pretty easy)
-Long Tubes (not getting cause I have a short tube exhaust, and it's proven that long tubes doesn't give any extra gains with a blower)
-X-pipe and catback (been there done that, and again awesome brand, MagnaFlow!)
-Plenum (Again it's like four bolts! And it was already off once for Kevin when he ported it.)
-Cams (I don't think many people on this board can do their own cams)
A lot of the above mods are taken care of when you get a KB though. For example the optional accessories on the Kenne Bell site for our Stangs include:
-75mm TB and "Big Tube" kit (Cold Air Intake and TB done) - And if I put a 75mm TB on a NA motor I'd probably be losing HP
-90mm Meter, I guess I could get a Lightening OR SCT MAF but on an stock motor would it help any and how about compatibility with the KB system?
-Plenum - Replaced by KB so is it worth it to buy...
-Cams - If I can run blower cams with an NA setup and gain HP then I might be interested in that.
-Exhaust - Midpipe and catback are done and from the articles I read most short tube headers gain you peak HP but you lose torque, which is something our cars need more of!
So out of that list, I could do the MAF, I guess I could get a 70mm TB and get a 75mm later and cams definitely interested in. So the only part I couldn't do there would be the cams.
And as for the tubular front suspension stuff, take a look at this: http://www.maximummotorsports.com/kmember.asp They specifically say no stock A-arms and front coilover kit.
Although I do like buying Ford parts, I like to get the best. I wouldn't mind some used parts but I haven't seen a lot of the stuff I've done available used. And Marcus if you've got deals on 99+ parts over there drop me emails! The parts guy I deal with out of Winnipeg has been hard to get ahold of lately. I'm definitely one of those customers that likes to shop at the same place all the time, especially when I know I'm getting a great price.
Back to the brand thing I could have gotten some Steeda CC Plates but I got MM, much better brand. Also if you look at all the stuff I listed when I made up my little mod list there, the only Ford parts on there were UCAs (which are recommended by Maximum Motorsports), the Aluminum Driveshaft, which seems to be the driveshaft of choice on these boards and the Bullitt Brakes. All those parts from Ford are good value and as long as you get them from the right places there are a good price. All my other suspension parts were MM and the shocks and struts were Blistein, which is definitely the top brand in shocks and struts.
Also in terms of installing stuff, I'm learning a lot of stuff from Russ when he comes and helps me install mods. I mean last year when we installed my springs I was totally clueless and if you ask Russ about the CC plate install I was much more helpful!
And in terms of the insatiability of the listed parts:
-MAF (pretty easy to install)
-TB (I can deal with four bolts and a throttle linkage)
-Coldair (again pretty easy)
-Long Tubes (not getting cause I have a short tube exhaust, and it's proven that long tubes doesn't give any extra gains with a blower)
-X-pipe and catback (been there done that, and again awesome brand, MagnaFlow!)
-Plenum (Again it's like four bolts! And it was already off once for Kevin when he ported it.)
-Cams (I don't think many people on this board can do their own cams)
A lot of the above mods are taken care of when you get a KB though. For example the optional accessories on the Kenne Bell site for our Stangs include:
-75mm TB and "Big Tube" kit (Cold Air Intake and TB done) - And if I put a 75mm TB on a NA motor I'd probably be losing HP
-90mm Meter, I guess I could get a Lightening OR SCT MAF but on an stock motor would it help any and how about compatibility with the KB system?
-Plenum - Replaced by KB so is it worth it to buy...
-Cams - If I can run blower cams with an NA setup and gain HP then I might be interested in that.
-Exhaust - Midpipe and catback are done and from the articles I read most short tube headers gain you peak HP but you lose torque, which is something our cars need more of!
So out of that list, I could do the MAF, I guess I could get a 70mm TB and get a 75mm later and cams definitely interested in. So the only part I couldn't do there would be the cams.
And as for the tubular front suspension stuff, take a look at this: http://www.maximummotorsports.com/kmember.asp They specifically say no stock A-arms and front coilover kit.
Silvr04GT said:
I agree with you totally. All the brand you have or listed are top of the line, some stuff ford has is great, some stuff there's better on the market. If you want parts local, talk to Brian or Colin @ Performance Plus. I don't work there I just hang out there. But there prices are always good, and most of the time it's cheaper to buy there than used from the US. The deal I saw on a TB was used for a few months on another board.
That's cool that the KB kit can come with most of everything you need, though I'm suprised it's only a 75mm TB. The one I saw and most people seem to use are 80mm and 90MAF's. My own 302 I'm running a 75mm TB on a natural asp. motor.
As for the tubular stuff I know MM is coil-over only. I know D&D makes K-members with spring perches and I think someone else does. You can also run stock A-arms on the D&D K-members. But the K-member and coil-overs are cheap, so if you really wanted it you could do it all. But I think the rear stuff is more important.
But yeah, I think you know what you need to do by now, what area's you can work on, etc. And what will work in the long run with the blower.
TweekedGT said:What the hell is going on here you guys? I come here from a long day at work looking for mindless banter and then I get to this post. You guys are way too damn serious, now start getting stupid again and make me laugh!
But this is a serious topic! lol! I gotta figure out what to do! The more I read everything everyone is saying I think that I'll built up car and then after I get out of school and have some money I'll start digging into the motor/getting a blower.
If my motor was old or something I might consider starting to save for a short block but right now I have motor with 7500 km on it, there's no need to take that out and put in a new block at this point.
So my plan is to start the suspension build up. And SFCs are definitely going to be first on that list!
I really appreciate everyone throwing their opinions in the ring here, it definitely helped and gave me a lot of ideas as I get deeper into the car.
