My 351W heads...whatcha think?

Hissing Cobra · Sep 28, 2006

While I agree that the AFR head has A LOT more potential than the D0 head (especially in Supercharged, Turbocharged, and Nitrous applications), On naturally aspirated combos, their not going to do too much better. You guys can call B.S., all you want. I have the dyno graphs of both combos, showing the air/fuel curves to be extremely good. I don't know how you can say that my AFR combo is out of whack, when it's tuned about as good as it can get and runs very well. Let's just say that the D0 heads in question feature the larger valves and have been ported and polished to the max (by a true professional, who's got a very good reputation).

EDC · Sep 28, 2006

Modular2v said:
There is alot more that goes into building a combo than power, and most of this is budget and bang for the buck. . . . it is nice to find a set of 30yr old heads with every bell and whistle/port job done to them for cheap bolt on power as opposed to a 1300$ set of afr 185s! Are the aftermarket aluminum heads better for making power? Hell yes they are! Are they budget friendly? Depends on your budget!

Guess you missed this part of my post...

Tom Moss knows my experience and what I've done with E7 and DO0E heads in the past, and unless there are serious budget constraints or some rediculas racing rules requiring the stock iron heads, a set of aftermarket heads will walk all over a set of OEM heads...

Besides... those 35 year old heads will require a ton of rework to get them correct. Guides need replacing, valve seats are probalby worn to $hit and may even need hardened exhaust seats installed to run unleaded fuel. Then there's the new valves, valves springs, retainers and locks... The machine work to get them in decent shape including a good valve job, milling to get the chambers down to something reasonable, cutting spring pockets to fit good springs... then you want to port them!

False economy to me...

Buy some used Trickflows or Performers from the classifieds for $600-$650 and save 45 pounds off the nose all while making more power and stop wasting money on junk parts...

Ed

EDC · Sep 28, 2006

Hissing Cobra said:
While I agree that the AFR head has A LOT more potential than the D0 head (especially in Supercharged, Turbocharged, and Nitrous applications), On naturally aspirated combos, their not going to do too much better.

That's so wrong it's funny. With smaller camshafts than yours, AFR 165 combos have made over 345 RWHP with EFI and more with ONE carb. When coupled to a set of 185 heads and the right peripherals, we're seeing even more!

Like I stated... the AFR combo is whacked and totally screwed up if your OE heads make more power with the "same" parts...

You guys can call B.S., all you want. I have the dyno graphs of both combos, showing the air/fuel curves to be extremely good.

Post ALL the info on the two engine packages and vehicles as well as these magical charts. Tell me which dyno facility you are using too. I can make a trip there.

I'm still calling BS to the max!

I don't know how you can say that my AFR combo is out of whack, when it's tuned about as good as it can get and runs very well.

It's easy to say it's whacked... it's not making power! Fire the tuner!

Let's just say that the D0 heads in question feature the larger valves and have been ported and polished to the max (by a true professional, who's got a very good reputation).

You're in Mass.. name names then...

I must know this "professional" since you're in my backyard...

Ed

Boss 351 · Sep 28, 2006

You can get ported, re-newed 351W heads for dirt cheap today, even half price of a used set of aluminum heads. If the C9's or D0's are properly built it can help get a lightweight fox into the 12's... what's wrong with that?

I know new heads will yield more power over ported windsors but you have to admit the cast iron heads (when properly done) can give a non-ported AFR 165's a run for the money.

Mostly because a lot of people have the "bigger is better" attitude when buying parts so I see very nice parts list but not so pleasing results due to too much carb, built for higher RPM and wrong gearing, mis-matched cam, etc...

Modular2v · Sep 28, 2006

Boss 351 said:
You can get ported, re-newed 351W heads for dirt cheap today, even half price of a used set of aluminum heads. If the C9's or D0's are properly built it can help get a lightweight fox into the 12's... what's wrong with that?

I know new heads will yield more power over ported windsors but you have to admit the cast iron heads (when properly done) can give a non-ported AFR 165's a run for the money.

Mostly because a lot of people have the "bigger is better" attitude when buying parts so I see very nice parts list but not so pleasing results due to too much carb, built for higher RPM and wrong gearing, mis-matched cam, etc...

they have gotten me 12.30s all motor with a slipping clutch! i see nothing wrong with them and im running faster than some afr headed cars. . .i have alot more suspension setup in the car than those with aftermarket heads though

Modular2v · Sep 28, 2006

EDC said:
Guess you missed this part of my post...

Besides... those 35 year old heads will require a ton of rework to get them correct. Guides need replacing, valve seats are probalby worn to $hit and may even need hardened exhaust seats installed to run unleaded fuel. Then there's the new valves, valves springs, retainers and locks... The machine work to get them in decent shape including a good valve job, milling to get the chambers down to something reasonable, cutting spring pockets to fit good springs... then you want to port them!

False economy to me...

Buy some used Trickflows or Performers from the classifieds for $600-$650 and save 45 pounds off the nose all while making more power and stop wasting money on junk parts...

Ed

You know, these used trick flows in the classifieds that go for 600-650 are like girls with a nice rack, tight ass, cute face and great personalities. . . . you always hear about them but can never find them. I looked online everywhere for 3 months and could not find them cheaper than 900!!!!!

EDC · Sep 28, 2006

Boss 351 said:
You can get ported, re-newed 351W heads for dirt cheap today, even half price of a used set of aluminum heads. If the C9's or D0's are properly built it can help get a lightweight fox into the 12's... what's wrong with that?

Lightweight Foxes can run mid to high twelves with a stock engine and the right driveline and exhaust peripherals. Bob Cosby and a bunch of other people proved that almost ten years ago.

If twelves are the goal, leave the stock E7 heads on there and play with the chassis!

Also... where are these "ported, renewed 351W" heads? What work is done to them for $300? After all, that's half of what a set of Performer heads were in the classifieds.

I know new heads will yield more power over ported windsors but you have to admit the cast iron heads (when properly done) can give a non-ported AFR 165's a run for the money.

First of all... There is no such thing as an "unported AFR" cylinder head. Only the raw casting with no hardware are available to pro shops. Retail customers can only purchase CNC ported AFR heads.

And again... by "properly done" iron Windsors, explain the details on these heads. What's been done and what is included for this $300 price?

Mostly because a lot of people have the "bigger is better" attitude when buying parts so I see very nice parts list but not so pleasing results due to too much carb, built for higher RPM and wrong gearing, mis-matched cam, etc...

Nothing I wrote ever said bigger is better so don't go there...

Matched parts always work better and that's why "my" customers go faster with less. All I saying is a set of "properly done" iron OE heads will still never out power a set of AFR 185 heads, let alone be done for "half" of what a set of used Performers or TW heads cost.

We've done both tyoes of packages and know this to be fact. Just check out a few older MM&FF magazines where the FTI ported OE iron heads were used on a NMCA project car. The rules dictated OE iron heads with any mods. We were able to run 11.80's on a 13.00 Index for the class. Guess they worked but with a stock set of AFR 165 heads it would have run four or five tenths faster in the same combo!

Ed

R2D2 · Sep 28, 2006

NOONE is disputing the D0 can get you to go 12's, hell you can get there on a bone stock 5.0 with some suspension. But to say that these D0's will outpower an afr185 or an afr185 wont give you much more on an N/A motor is just comical. The D0 head is a 220/170ish head at best, depending on who's bench etc. Dont tell me about iron either, Im a cleveland junky for decades now and if theres an iron head that can be made to run with 95% of bolt on aftermarket aluminums its the 4v CC head. I have nothing against budgets, nothing against iron heads, but to tell people the D0 in full port form is neck and neck with an afr185 gives me flashbacks of mustangforums.com and the pure lunacy over there. Carry on, good day.

Modular2v · Sep 28, 2006

sbftech said:
NOONE is disputing the D0 can get you to go 12's, hell you can get there on a bone stock 5.0 with some suspension. But to say that these D0's will outpower an afr185 or an afr185 wont give you much more on an N/A motor is just comical. The D0 head is a 220/170ish head at best, depending on who's bench etc. Dont tell me about iron either, Im a cleveland junky for decades now and if theres an iron head that can be made to run with 95% of bolt on aftermarket aluminums its the 4v CC head. I have nothing against budgets, nothing against iron heads, but to tell people the D0 in full port form is neck and neck with an afr185 gives me flashbacks of mustangforums.com and the pure lunacy over there. Carry on, good day.

i dont think anyone is saying that a do/c9 head is neck and neck with a afr head. . . Maybe it could be a on a certain application but that would be an extreme oddity to say the least and would probably included some other not right/incorrect factor being put into the mix. Speaking of not being cost effective, the cleveland heads onto a windsor block is very expensive! I have some 4v closed chambered heads that i was going to do this with and it would have cost me more than a set of victor jrs/afrs/trick flows

EDC · Sep 28, 2006

Modular2v said:
iSpeaking of not being cost effective, the cleveland heads onto a windsor block is very expensive!

Yeah but Woody is not normal....

Ed

R2D2 · Sep 28, 2006

Modular2v said:
i dont think anyone is saying that a do/c9 head is neck and neck with a afr head. . . Maybe it could be a on a certain application but that would be an extreme oddity to say the least and would probably included some other not right/incorrect factor being put into the mix. Speaking of not being cost effective, the cleveland heads onto a windsor block is very expensive! I have some 4v closed chambered heads that i was going to do this with and it would have cost me more than a set of victor jrs/afrs/trick flows

Ok Im done with this topic, and I never said a cleveland head was cost effective I just was stating my love for iron. My whole reply and involvement in this thread was to state that a D0 head is nowhere near the same league as an afr185 as stated by hissincobra and his setup. he has serious issues if the D0 motor makes more than the other afr motor.

Pssshh some intake spacers and a few holes and a few plugs and slam that clevo head onto a 393-408 inch windsor and watch out

tmoss · Sep 28, 2006

sbftech said:
....., depending on who's bench etc.

You know how we should look at benches? Get a before and after on the same bench and see what improvement has been made. Trying to compare one flowbench number to another is most likely an excersize in futility.

I ported a Cobra lower for a customer who had his experienced head man flow the intake on his SF600 - reported back ~236 cfm which he felt was low for what I told him to expect. Come to find out his head man tested the stock Cobra lower at ~195cfm average which is low when you look at results from various benches on Cobra lowers. In the end, we saw my work got him ~40cfm and that is all that matters, 236 or 256, who cares if a 40cfm gain was documented. I'm sure you've heard the expression "We don't race flow benchs".

thumper460 · Sep 28, 2006

Rocking.. we are doing the same!! C heads on a 393W stroker.. gonna rock!!

Just me.............................

Thumper

R2D2 · Sep 28, 2006

tmoss said:
You know how we should look at benches? Get a before and after on the same bench and see what improvement has been made. Trying to compare one flowbench number to another is most likely an excersize in futility.

noone will say that louder and more often than me. My bench is for nothing more than my personal stuff and to gauge my improvement on my stuff. But for ****s and giggles, the D0 is a 220 head at best

R2D2 · Sep 28, 2006

thumper460 said:
Rocking.. we are doing the same!! C heads on a 393W stroker.. gonna rock!!

Just me.............................

Thumper

View attachment 437392

Hissing Cobra · Sep 28, 2006

I'm not naming names. We tuned the cars ourselves, on the dyno. We know what we're doing. I know that it's the intake and the dual quads on both cars that's holding back some power. I also know for a fact that I've got more in it if I switched over to an RPM Airgap or a Victor Jr. and a 650 carb. I won't do that though because I like the look of two carburetors. It separates us from the crowd when we're at the car shows. Making 300 horsepower on a naturally aspirated engine is a goal that a lot of people aspire to achieve. We've done it both ways and we're not afraid to share the combos with people who want to do it.

You know, you guys kill me. You all come on here talking smack but you NEVER post up combos. You all talk about 345 horsepower or more out of a 306 that's both naturally aspirated and has excellent street driven manners. Where are they all? Why can't you post all of the pieces to the puzzle that are needed to make this alledged horsepower? Why the secrets?

I'm not posting any B.S. here, just the facts. This kid asked what kind of power he could be looking at and I gave him a full blown way of achieving it. FREE OF CHARGE.

EDC · Sep 28, 2006

Hissing Cobra said:
I'm not naming names.

Why not?

Guess I could just ask Dez or Brian...

You know, you guys kill me. You all come on here talking smack but you NEVER post up combos. You all talk about 345 horsepower or more out of a 306 that's both naturally aspirated and has excellent street driven manners. Where are they all? Why can't you post all of the pieces to the puzzle that are needed to make this alledged horsepower? Why the secrets?

No secrets. Just do a search on the Corral or Hardcore50.com

Look for people like Darin Hendricks, Jesse Henchel, Mark Whitney or since you're in the Mass area... Joe Correia or Keith Calitri...

Real cars making real power. The truth is out there.

I'm not posting any B.S. here, just the facts. This kid asked what kind of power he could be looking at and I gave him a full blown way of achieving it. FREE OF CHARGE.

Pete..

Read my signature....

Ed

90NotchBack · Sep 28, 2006

I have untouched 69 351W heads on my fairly stock 351W and it goes 12.60's and 11.33 on a 175 shot. I only have 9:5:1 compression and small cam. My dad has a simlar set up parts wise with more compression 10:7:1, bigger cam and a singal plane intake, Port 69 351W heads and has been 11.58@118.

85_SS_302_Coupe · Sep 28, 2006

Well guys let's not get in a big stink over it....as it turns out, i might not even be using them now!!! I might have scored me some aluminum Edel RPMs in a trade i'm doing on a work truck i have...stay tuned.

Either way, if i don't use them my buddy will, and once it's together we'll have the guys at MD Motorsport in Cincinnati put it on the rollers and see what they're worth.

85_SS_302_Coupe · Oct 1, 2006

OK so the RPM head deal fell through. Now my next and last question is, which does everyone think will be better....stock GT40P heads or these 351W heads? The W's have bigger valves on both sides and according to this site http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/flowdata/castiron.htm are going to flow more as long as the port job is decent. Also don't the P heads have a bigger combustion chamber than the Ws? So i'd get a little bump in compression from the Ws?

My 351W heads...whatcha think?

Hissing Cobra

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