Need help still can't get this thing to run right....(long)

Mike86Stang · Nov 12, 2004

Need help still can't get this thing to run right....(long)

My car seems to be seriously down on power for the mods it has. So far my best et/MPH is 13.27@ 103.7mph with a 1.96 60foot time. This was on 225/60/15 DR's 32* of timing locked out & 60 psi of fuel pressure. Shifts were at 6000-6200rpm, launch was 3200rpm.

Mods Are:
75MM pro-m
70mm T-body
Holley Systemax II intake
Edelbrock 6037's with 2.02 valves (ped mount/O-ringed)
Crane 1.7 Ratio RR
Steeda # 19 cam -
220/226 @ .050 with .510 lift(w/1.7's) 115 LSA 110 ICL
Mac shorty headers
Off road H pipe 2.5"
Mac cat back all 2.5"
Electric Fan
3.73's
T-5Z trans
MSD Billet distributor
Compression should be pretty much stock (61CC chambers).

When driving the car it only spins at the top of first & I don't even get a chirp/bark out of second gear (265/50/15). I keep up pretty well with Cobras 03/04 & Lightnings on the street, ussually loosing a car to a car & a half to the Cobras. I realize these cars/trucks are fairly heavy so i don't know how much of an indicator that is to the performance of mine.

The power band doesn't come on till about 3000 rpm & it seems to nose over at 5500. I was looking for a cam that would pull right up to the limiter honestly but this isn't doing it. I am looking to try & get the car to run 110+ mph but it seems I'm way off track.

Here's pics of my rocker wear pattern since I was asked about valvetrain geometry previously...
(Not sure how much traffic the site will support...as fair warning)

http://www.motorhead.stangnet.com/images/dscf0005.jpg = cyl 5
http://www.motorhead.stangnet.com/images/dscf0006.jpg = cyl 6
http://www.motorhead.stangnet.com/images/dscf0007.jpg = cyl 7
http://www.motorhead.stangnet.com/images/dscf0004.jpg = cyl 8

On a recomendation of some folks on Hardcore50 I put the FP back to stock
put the timing at 15* reset the eec idle/tps & now...

Low end torque is improved. (Butt-o meter)
High RPM power is down. (Butt-o-meter)
Pop's in the exhuast on accel - pops in what sounds like the muffler looses power for a moment then picks back up.
Mid-range 2000-3500 feels like there is a stummble /miss.

Any & all ideas are welcome

Mike

93 teal terror · Nov 12, 2004

Are you running the stock injectors? The only real way to know whats going on is to get a dyno and tune. Your cam is supposed to work with the 94/95 computers and is designed to be more conservative....but I still think you should be in the 12's.

Rick 91GT · Nov 12, 2004

Mike you ever figure out what went on with those 3 rockers? Maybe some bent valves?

5spd GT · Nov 12, 2004

Well no matter what you really need to get your injectors upgraded because I'm assuming if your running 60lbs of FP (that is a bunch) you have the stock injectors and that still seems like a lot...you need to get the new injectors (30lb) calibrated for your Pro-M...

Your mph is showing the power is not there like it should be...

Did you degree the cam in?

You do have the firing order correct right?

Try your timing at idle/warm around 16-18* with the spout out...

Just some ideas...

Oh a good driven 03/04 Cobra should get 111-113mph...so your about 10mph shy of that which should equate to more car lengths than you gave...just keep tinkering...

bt15 · Nov 12, 2004

What ignition are you running? How about plug gap? I've found that managing my ignition and gap carefully have cured all of the mid-range popping / high end nosing over problems. I'm running a carbed setup, but otherwise very similar to your drivetrain. I was having very similar problems, replaced my stock ignition with a Crane Cams HI-6, changed over to a Street / Strip distributor and a LX 92 coil. I then CLOSED the spark plug gap back down to about .035 from .050. It was like a new car. It now pulls strongly from about 1800-6500, with no mid-rpm stumble. I've suffered a bit off-idle (low-end torque), but certainly not enough to upset me. The slight weakness down below 1750 or so was worth the monster improvement in the mid-range to up top.

DMAN302 · Nov 12, 2004

FP way too high, your maxing out the injectors and I think leaning up too much...go 24's, also get that timing up once you get the fuel right, mine LOVES to be over 14*

perkys stang · Nov 12, 2004

Hey Mike.. How about bringing it up to the house one night and we can go voer the car some?

Let me know.. Also now have access to a wideband if you want to check it out on the street some..

Perky

Mike86Stang · Nov 12, 2004

Perky - that would be awesome, beer & pizza's on me... let me know. I'll shoot you my new cell (PM).

93 -- yes I have stock injectors & am buying some 24's as we speak...

Rickki - never figgured it out it makes no sense. I triple checked em & they are way over .040 clearence between them & the retainers (what crane told me it should be). If the valves were bent wouldn't they stick or compression be low on those cycls?

5sptGT- the cam was not degreed, the firing order is correct. I did have the car at 18* with the 60 psi but based on some suggestions I backed down the timing & FP & what happened I posted in the previous post.

bt15 - stock ignition (aftermarket cap rotor wires & dizzy - stock coil no "box")

Thanks for the help so far keep the ideas coming !

Rick 91GT · Nov 12, 2004

Let me know what night your heading up Bill's, I'll come up

93 teal terror · Nov 12, 2004

Man if you can get it working right with Rick and Perky....Id sell the bitch. lol

WHITE94COBRA · Nov 12, 2004

Fuel pressure should be around 40 - 45 psi max. Wear pattern on the valves seems kinda off but not too bad, get it on a dyno and get it tuned after you get the #24's and all should be good.

Mike86Stang · Nov 12, 2004

Definitly Rickki, been a while since I've seen you guys! Need to play catch up & see what's going on. Besides I know you're wants to score some beer & pizza

93- lol, the thought has crossed my mind on more than one occassion!

FWIW I called crane they told me I need rocker stand shims & longer pushrods for more pre-load & to get the wear pattern more centralized, so it is on the to do list.
However I was always under the impression that less pre-load was better for power production... any thoughts here?

Jeff Cardwell · Nov 12, 2004

Have you checked the ground from the Fuel Injection Harnes that with stock heads grounds on the Drivers Side Head since they are Iron. I noticed that you have Aluminum Heads so its possibly a bad ground as this harness also grounds the MAF. A loose or dirty connection at that ground could do it as I had problems on a stock setup with that ground. I had very similar problems. Find someone who is good electrical.

Jeff
www.ThunderValleyMustangs.com

Ranchero5.0 · Nov 12, 2004

Mike, I'd seriously look into the MAF swap stuff and take Perky up on the wide band. Let me know when you guys do it and I'll try to ride up to offer help or ideas. The reason I suggest the MAF stuff is I'm seeing on the turbo coupe we built that it's dropping out of closed loop randomly (A/F stops sweeping) and it's eating a lot of fuel. We put a A trim on it, but still...

It's a pity, your poor car never has seemed to run as good as it should for the mod and work...

Jamie

perkys stang · Nov 12, 2004

Ranchero5.0 said:
Mike, I'd seriously look into the MAF swap stuff and take Perky up on the wide band. Let me know when you guys do it and I'll try to ride up to offer help or ideas. The reason I suggest the MAF stuff is I'm seeing on the turbo coupe we built that it's dropping out of closed loop randomly (A/F stops sweeping) and it's eating a lot of fuel. We put a A trim on it, but still...

It's a pity, your poor car never has seemed to run as good as it should for the mod and work...

Jamie

WOW.. Jamie is alive Old School Stangnet reunion!!! Sweet..

Ranchero5.0 · Nov 12, 2004

Bill, I don't know where you've been able to get 7k posts, haven't seen your line for ages.

I'll be doing head gaskets again next weekend (once a year chore...), antifreeze is too expensive to keep dumping out the exhaust...

Reunion sounds like a good idea.

PS, we lost the steering column out of that 7up vert I got from you going about 80mph over blue ridge summit

Jamie

Mike86Stang · Nov 12, 2004

Ranchero5.0 said:
Mike, I'd seriously look into the MAF swap stuff and take Perky up on the wide band. Let me know when you guys do it and I'll try to ride up to offer help or ideas. The reason I suggest the MAF stuff is I'm seeing on the turbo coupe we built that it's dropping out of closed loop randomly (A/F stops sweeping) and it's eating a lot of fuel. We put a A trim on it, but still...

It's a pity, your poor car never has seemed to run as good as it should for the mod and work...

Jamie

No joke Jamie, I don't know if it's me or the stupid car half the time. The one time I got it to run half way decent was when it had the iron E6's heads (all the mods except cam/rr/heads) with 55psi of FP with vac. She ran like a raped ape for the mods it had ...it would blow off the tires in first & second was all over the place. Of course I never had it to the track or on a dyno like that.

It seems to be slower after the new parts...this SUCKS! LoL

What should I be looking for with the MAF? I'll check all the wires for voltage, continuity this weekend if the SSOTN meet get's cancelled. Stupid rain...

I'll definatly keep everyone in the loop it would be great to see all the old faces again!

Rick 91GT · Nov 13, 2004

As long we're not doing a "clutch job, tranny fix, fix everything else the damn clutch destroyed on the way out of the bell" with a hangover again I'm game.....man what a night that was

Mike I have a stock meter I'll bring it with me, if you haven't got the 24# yet I know a local guy that has a 75mm Bulletmeter and 24# inj for like $275, less then 50 miles on the injectors, he went to a blower.

Ranchero5.0 · Nov 13, 2004

On the bird I noticed with different MAF's the A/F would run leaner or richer depending on the meter in use. It'll also tell you if the puter is running open or closed loop. If you did the ole pro M kit with the pins check that they are in good shape and didn't pop out of the puters 60 pin connector (been there, done that) and make sure they didn't get deformed during the install...

Also check the grounds (TPS black wire to engine, then to chassis, then to battery) for DC or AC voltage KOEO and KOER. Spurious voltages will play heck with the puters ability to figure out what to do.

Finally, read a help page from a NAPA tech out in Arizona about Fords EEC car ECT sensors going out of calibration and causing weird idling , drivability problems, or just lack of performance in cars and trucks. Noticed it on the '93 when I neglected to top off the coolant a few days in a row and the ECT was getting a steam bath vs a water one. Car stuttered and barely ran after a couple minutes of first startup.

Hmmn, after rereading your first post with the fuel at stock it's stumbling and running poorly I'd lay money that the MAF circuit is whacked. I'd guess it's running extremely lean in a stock condition. I have off Monday through Wednesday this week if you want to blast up some evening. The '93 will be down, so I can pull the meter out of it and tie into your puter plug.

Jamie

Jamie

Mike86Stang · Nov 13, 2004

Ranchero5.0 said:
On the bird I noticed with different MAF's the A/F would run leaner or richer depending on the meter in use. It'll also tell you if the puter is running open or closed loop. If you did the ole pro M kit with the pins check that they are in good shape and didn't pop out of the puters 60 pin connector (been there, done that) and make sure they didn't get deformed during the install...

Also check the grounds (TPS black wire to engine, then to chassis, then to battery) for DC or AC voltage KOEO and KOER. Spurious voltages will play heck with the puters ability to figure out what to do.

Finally, read a help page from a NAPA tech out in Arizona about Fords EEC car ECT sensors going out of calibration and causing weird idling , drivability problems, or just lack of performance in cars and trucks. Noticed it on the '93 when I neglected to top off the coolant a few days in a row and the ECT was getting a steam bath vs a water one. Car stuttered and barely ran after a couple minutes of first startup.

Hmmn, after rereading your first post with the fuel at stock it's stumbling and running poorly I'd lay money that the MAF circuit is whacked. I'd guess it's running extremely lean in a stock condition. I have off Monday through Wednesday this week if you want to blast up some evening. The '93 will be down, so I can pull the meter out of it and tie into your puter plug.

Jamie

I'm all to familiar with the ECT's going out & taking a dump... replaced mine probably 4 times since I bought it seems for some reason they go out fairly frequently with my car... everytime it goes out I end up getting like 120 miles to a tank Right now it seems to be good averaging 210 to a tank.

As far as the EEC grounds I ran new ground wires to the chassis for all the ground pins... (was diaginosing the computer to see if it was bad this spring).
The EEC ended up having a internal short & replaced it..all seems normal now are far as the EEC goes. I'll check the MAF voltages tomorrow while the wife is at drivers Ed.

I don't know what it is about this car but it always seems to run so lean, like I said before with everything but heads & cam the car ran the best with 15* timing & 55 psi of FP on the 19's. I'm thinking now that the inj are just way to plugged/worn out to even attempt supporting this kind of HP with them. I guess I'll find out when the 24's make it into the car.

On a side note I pulled the plugs & they are looking nice & white now... before the electrodes & porcline's were brown with the body of the plug being sooty (rich at idle I suppose).

I'll check all the EEC stuff & MAF stuff tommorow & post back. I appreciate the offer to swing by but I got kiddie duty all week next week (oh joy), so I know I couldn't be able to make it.

mike

Need help still can't get this thing to run right....(long)

Mike86Stang

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Rick 91GT

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