Need...more....power....opinions needed!

deftsound · Feb 16, 2008

I need opinions here. I only have enough money for one of the two options here and need some good logical, intelligent opinions on which option I should choose. I don't want to get into the motor too much because eventually I will be building a forged motor and only want to put parts on that I can easily take off and re-use for a future build.

Again, I need logical advice here. I am looking to try to get in the 400-410 rwhp range as safely as possible because I want my stock block to last until I can afford a forged one.

I am looking for some down low power. As it is now all my power seems to be above about 4k rpms. I understand this is because it is a centrifugal blower but based on my research I have heard that adding an 8 rib belt and smaller pulley with a good intercooler will really help the power in lower rpms.

At the same time i figure if i get blower cams and a couple more bolt-ons I will gain 30-40 more hp in the lower rpm rage.

So since I only have money for one of the two, and I am not in a position to build a forged block yet, I have to decide on one or the other.

Thanks!

:SNSign:

justinschmidt1 · Feb 16, 2008

I say front mount and smaller pulley.

Safer an more power.

Gearbanger 101 · Feb 16, 2008

Option #2.....increasing efficiency is a better plan all around. Not to mention it's a lot less work than tearing apart your top end to install cams. And let me know when you decide to go with the pulleys. You can get them a HELL of a lot cheaper (about 1/3 the price) than most companies are offering them for by piecing them together yourself. I have the part list somewhere with all of the ones you'll need.

fobra559 · Feb 16, 2008

deftsound · Feb 17, 2008

any more opinions?

BennyBlown2v · Feb 17, 2008

I made 423rwhp/408tq without an intercooler, TOTALLY safe tune (ran it for a year no problems), on a 3.33" Reichard Racing pulley. Save yourself some cash and just run a smaller pulley non-intercooled (3.33" gave me 11psi with MPH boost pipe, flowtech lt's, and 75mm tb/plenum). I had the SAME mods as you pretty much... So yeah. I actually lost enough power with doing just a cheap piece-together FMIC setup that I kind of HAD to go to an 8-rib to make enough boost back without belt slip. With a smaller pulley your boost will come on sooner, and if you're driving the car in the right gear you shouldn't really notice any lag really, you just won't have the same "torque hit" that you get with a positive displacement setup (or turbo if brake boosting), period. I think 400rwhp/tq is possible without the tb/plenum too...but see my suggestions below for how to get some power on the cheap.

Think of it this way...

Smaller pulley: $60-$150 (Vortech brand vs RR)

8-Rib: $500 + 8-rib blower pulley (see above)

Intercooler: $500-$1500 depending on core, pipes, labor, blowoff/bypass, etc. etc.

Tb/Plenum: $100 for TB (ProfessionalProducts = best buy PERIOD), $75-$100 for no-name plenum on eBay (I bought one, sanded the inside and ground a couple rough spots including gasket matching).

hotmustang331 · Feb 17, 2008

3.3 pulley and FMIC.

Almost every set of aftermarket cams will LOOSE lowend torque. And ususally create drivability issues.

I know I wont be doing aftermarket cams again. Lowend torque and drivability is where its at!

hotmustang331 · Feb 17, 2008

BennyBlown2v said:
I made 423rwhp/408tq without an intercooler, TOTALLY safe tune (ran it for a year no problems), on a 3.33" Reichard Racing pulley. Save yourself some cash and just run a smaller pulley non-intercooled (3.33" gave me 11psi with MPH boost pipe, flowtech lt's, and 75mm tb/plenum). I had the SAME mods as you pretty much... So yeah. I actually lost enough power with doing just a cheap piece-together FMIC setup that I kind of HAD to go to an 8-rib to make enough boost back without belt slip. With a smaller pulley your boost will come on sooner, and if you're driving the car in the right gear you shouldn't really notice any lag really, you just won't have the same "torque hit" that you get with a positive displacement setup (or turbo if brake boosting), period. I think 400rwhp/tq is possible without the tb/plenum too...but see my suggestions below for how to get some power on the cheap.

Think of it this way...

Smaller pulley: $60-$150 (Vortech brand vs RR)

8-Rib: $500 + 8-rib blower pulley (see above)

Intercooler: $500-$1500 depending on core, pipes, labor, blowoff/bypass, etc. etc.

Tb/Plenum: $100 for TB (ProfessionalProducts = best buy PERIOD), $75-$100 for no-name plenum on eBay (I bought one, sanded the inside and ground a couple rough spots including gasket matching).

What were your IAT temps with no IC? Like a 1/4 mile pass or something....or maybe just a 3rd gear highway pull.

I know people usually complain of degrading performance on non IC setups due to heat buildup. Curious if you ever seen that issue....or if you noticed more consistant performance after the IC.

Basically im always for adding an intercooler...the lower the inlet temps the better.
Thats why im adding a second heat exchanger to my cobras stock setup ....you know I have to do something different and make this cobra MY cobra Never seen it done....easy enough to do....cost me $40 for another stock HE...hello cooler inlet temps.

04YELLOWGT · Feb 17, 2008

BennyBlown2v said:
Smaller pulley: $60-$150 (Vortech brand vs RR)

8-Rib: $500 + 8-rib blower pulley (see above)

Intercooler: $500-$1500 depending on core, pipes, labor, blowoff/bypass, etc. etc.

Tb/Plenum: $100 for TB (ProfessionalProducts = best buy PERIOD), $75-$100 for no-name plenum on eBay (I bought one, sanded the inside and ground a couple rough spots including gasket matching).

Risk of blowing your motor: Priceless

BennyBlown2v · Feb 17, 2008

04YELLOWGT said:
Risk of blowing your motor: Priceless

I ran it for a year on a conservative tune with that setup...made power...no blowing up. Seems like you just threw money at your car to avoid stressing out your stock motor lmao...heck I would have thrown 20psi at it before moving to a built block. There are PLENTY of people making WAY more power than me on a stock block and not popping anything...with way more miles than me, too. Try posting something constructive rather than some pointless and ignorant remark.

hotmustang331 said:
What were your IAT temps with no IC? Like a 1/4 mile pass or something....or maybe just a 3rd gear highway pull.

I know people usually complain of degrading performance on non IC setups due to heat buildup. Curious if you ever seen that issue....or if you noticed more consistant performance after the IC.

Basically im always for adding an intercooler...the lower the inlet temps the better.
Thats why im adding a second heat exchanger to my cobras stock setup ....you know I have to do something different and make this cobra MY cobra Never seen it done....easy enough to do....cost me $40 for another stock HE...hello cooler inlet temps.

I can't recall exact IAT's, but they weren't bad driving around, but hot lapping at the track it would start to soak after 5 passes or so. IAT's would come up gradually, then pretty much once it got hot it would stay hot unless I sprayed down the pipes with some water/methanol and let it sit for 30mins or so. Daily driving, it was no big deal.

It is certainly more consistent after the intercooler, IAT's are +5 to +10 over ambient max...but with a cheap ebay core you're going to lose so much boost and hp it's not even funny. My word of advice is, if you do an intercooler use a quality core the first time around - sure my setup works and makes power now, but I would much rather have one with less pressure drop while retaining similar IAT's.

But as far as the OP is concerned, bang for buck just throw a smaller pulley on there! 11psi non-intercooled is fine if you keep your afr to <11.6 and keep the timing on the low side.

Gearbanger 101 · Feb 17, 2008

BennyBlown2v said:
I ran it for a year on a conservative tune with that setup...made power...no blowing up. Seems like you just threw money at your car to avoid stressing out your stock motor lmao...heck I would have thrown 20psi at it before moving to a built block. There are PLENTY of people making WAY more power than me on a stock block and not popping anything...with way more miles than me, too. Try posting something constructive rather than some pointless and ignorant remark.

Don't get your balls in a bunch Benny. His concern is a legitamate one. A lot have guys have blown up their 4.6's making a lot less power than that. Just because you and a few others have had luck with that set up, doesn't mean everyone is willing to risk it!

BennyBlown2v · Feb 17, 2008

Gearbanger 101 said:
Don't get your balls in a bunch Benny. His concern is a legitamate one. A lot have guys have blown up their 4.6's making a lot less power than that. Just because you and a few others have had luck with that set up, doesn't mean everyone is willing to risk it!

I'm not, no worries Brian! This is a tech thread, he didn't add anything but quoting me to insinuate I prescribed a recipe for disaster; when in fact, that is anything but the case. It's all in the tune yo!

hotmustang331 · Feb 17, 2008

^+1 ALL in the tune.

Need I remind you guys of a certain stock shortblock GT with over 70K miles that made 550RWHP? These motors (well I mean 2V GTs), can take ALOT of power....if you totally avoid detonation the motor should be fine for a LONG time.

Problem is people try to make all their power in the tune. Just make the engine more efficient and run a safe tune....much safer than low boost and aggressive tune.
I would venture to say that my 550RWHP GT was just as safe, if not safer than most of the forced induction GTs on this board. I ran a 10.0 A/F and 15*s of timing....along with BR7EF plugs. "Detonation" wasn't in the engines vocabulary unless a part fails or something....and in that case almost any blown 2V will explode.

deftsound · Feb 18, 2008

*sigh* I cant make my mind up...

deftsound · Feb 18, 2008

BennyBlown2v said:
Think of it this way...

Smaller pulley: $60-$150 (Vortech brand vs RR)

8-Rib: $500 + 8-rib blower pulley (see above)

Intercooler: $500-$1500 depending on core, pipes, labor, blowoff/bypass, etc. etc.

Tb/Plenum: $100 for TB (ProfessionalProducts = best buy PERIOD), $75-$100 for no-name plenum on eBay (I bought one, sanded the inside and ground a couple rough spots including gasket matching).

Benny thank you for the advice! I hold your opinion and knowledge in high regard around here.

Few questions:
1) Where can i get an 8 rib kit and what is involved in converting to 8 rib? I know I need the 8 rib blower pulley but what else?

2) What size pulley will I need to achieve say...420hp assuming I have a relatively efficient intercooler setup, like Treadstone. Im assuming this would be around 10-11# of boost and this is with the 8 rib setup...

Thanks!

Stang01GT · Feb 18, 2008

i think you should buy a quality intercooler and then pulley down and get a tune, you'll make more power and be extra safe.

BennyBlown2v · Feb 18, 2008

deftsound said:
Benny thank you for the advice! I hold your opinion and knowledge in high regard around here.

Few questions:
1) Where can i get an 8 rib kit and what is involved in converting to 8 rib? I know I need the 8 rib blower pulley but what else?

2) What size pulley will I need to achieve say...420hp assuming I have a relatively efficient intercooler setup, like Treadstone. Im assuming this would be around 10-11# of boost and this is with the 8 rib setup...

Thanks!

Heh, thanks.

1) http://www.bggperformance.com/ - that is the "GI Joe" 8-rib kit. It's very complete, instructions are pretty good, and if you've removed all your pulleys before it's a snap to do. You'll need a 3 bolt harmonic balancer puller for the crank, a set or circlip pliers for the ac pulley, and a power steering pulley installer/puller for Ford '91+ 4.6l (this is the hardest pulley to remove and install, you have to have patients and LONG levers as in breaker bars or cheater bars over your wrenches). I was going to get a Vortech blower pulley, but they kept getting back ordered, so I found one on ebay from some brand-x company and its VERY good quality though (I forget the name of it, I'll post back if I find it) - but if you really want the best grip a Reichard Racing pulley is where its at (which you can order through BGG, I had a RR pulley on my 6-rib setup and it was great).

2) I made 404hp/390tq roughly with 10psi on a 3.12" pulley on my crappy intercooler setup - so with an 8-rib setup and a better intercooler, I think you would only need 3.0"-3.33". I went with a 2.9" because of my ebay core lol...but I'll be upgrading in a couple months if I'm dissatisfied with the results from just the 8-rib/2.9" heh. I would say you should be in the power range of 400-420-ish with a good tune at a safe afr.

deftsound · Feb 18, 2008

BennyBlown2v said:
Heh, thanks.

1) http://www.bggperformance.com/ - that is the "GI Joe" 8-rib kit. It's very complete, instructions are pretty good, and if you've removed all your pulleys before it's a snap to do. You'll need a 3 bolt harmonic balancer puller for the crank, a set or circlip pliers for the ac pulley, and a power steering pulley installer/puller for Ford '91+ 4.6l (this is the hardest pulley to remove and install, you have to have patients and LONG levers as in breaker bars or cheater bars over your wrenches). I was going to get a Vortech blower pulley, but they kept getting back ordered, so I found one on ebay from some brand-x company and its VERY good quality though (I forget the name of it, I'll post back if I find it) - but if you really want the best grip a Reichard Racing pulley is where its at (which you can order through BGG, I had a RR pulley on my 6-rib setup and it was great).

2) I made 404hp/390tq roughly with 10psi on a 3.12" pulley on my crappy intercooler setup - so with an 8-rib setup and a better intercooler, I think you would only need 3.0"-3.33". I went with a 2.9" because of my ebay core lol...but I'll be upgrading in a couple months if I'm dissatisfied with the results from just the 8-rib/2.9" heh. I would say you should be in the power range of 400-420-ish with a good tune at a safe afr.

Thanks!

04YELLOWGT · Feb 18, 2008

BennyBlown2v said:
I ran it for a year on a conservative tune with that setup...made power...no blowing up. Seems like you just threw money at your car to avoid stressing out your stock motor lmao...heck I would have thrown 20psi at it before moving to a built block. There are PLENTY of people making WAY more power than me on a stock block and not popping anything...with way more miles than me, too. Try posting something constructive rather than some pointless and ignorant remark.

I can't recall exact IAT's, but they weren't bad driving around, but hot lapping at the track it would start to soak after 5 passes or so. IAT's would come up gradually, then pretty much once it got hot it would stay hot unless I sprayed down the pipes with some water/methanol and let it sit for 30mins or so. Daily driving, it was no big deal.

It is certainly more consistent after the intercooler, IAT's are +5 to +10 over ambient max...but with a cheap ebay core you're going to lose so much boost and hp it's not even funny. My word of advice is, if you do an intercooler use a quality core the first time around - sure my setup works and makes power now, but I would much rather have one with less pressure drop while retaining similar IAT's.

But as far as the OP is concerned, bang for buck just throw a smaller pulley on there! 11psi non-intercooled is fine if you keep your afr to <11.6 and keep the timing on the low side.

It was more of a joke but if you want to get your panties in a bunch over it what ever. I put in a built motor because I pretty much DD my car in the summer and race it 1-2 times a month and the tracks are 1.5-2.5 hrs away depending on where I go. I didn’t want to run the risk of blowing my motor and have to get it towed from that far away. I also wanted to have a good block still sitting around because I’m eventually going to build that up and possibly drop into a Ford Ranger.

Yes there are people making more power but it’s not the norm and people have blown there motor with less than 450rwhp just like people have blown them with 550+rwhp. A lot of people making more power also don’t drive their car as a full or semi-DD. You also can’t tell me the IATs were not high with that much boost with out an IC/AC. You got away with running a lot of boost just like I got away making all that power with a stock Auto just because we did doesn’t mean every one else will. Tim at MPH doesn’t recommend an IC with a 3.33 pulley or smaller for no reason, he does it for safety.

People already told him the smart and safe thing to do.

Paxton or Custom IC
3.33-3.25 pulley
8 Rib Kit (Isn’t really needed with a 3.33 though)
TB/Plenum

the98stang · Feb 18, 2008

I say run a 3.12 pulley with custom FMIC

Need...more....power....opinions needed!

Blower cams with boltons or Smaller pulley/intercooler

MPH blower cams, TB/plenum combo (with tune)

3.3' or smaller pully, FMIC, 8 rib belt (with tune)

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