Need some tips on valve seals for the people that have done it. (engine on stand)

1987stangman · Feb 27, 2011

After my PI swap I sold my old 4.6 to a guy that needed to replace on his his F-150 that had a blown head gasket and many, many miles. I offered that if he brought me his old engine I would swap over the needed items to the engine I sold him so he could just drop it back into his truck. He is paying me additional money for this along with needed gaskets. My old motor had an issue with the #8 cyl valve seals but I am replacing all the valve seals so it will get him by for a few years in his beater truck.

Anyways, I am using the trick flow valve seal tool and I have the engine on the stand, using air to keep the valves up. I have done a couple but I'm getting frustrated with the keepers. With the cam still in and the tool taking up what little space is there it's a real bitch to get the keepers on. I know it's a long shot, but I was hoping someone had a nifty idea to get these little bastards in easier.

trombonedemon · Feb 28, 2011

The Chiltons guide actually has a great write-up on how to do just that, mines in my car. Unless you want me to go and type what the guide advises.

1987stangman · Feb 28, 2011

Not necessary, I was just asking to see if anyone had a better way to get the keepers in. It's just tedious. I truly feel for anyone who has done seals with the engine still in the car.

trinity_gt · Feb 28, 2011

Make sure you plug the oil drainback holes so you don't drop one into the sump. Remember to unblock the holes when you're done...

patman0911 · Feb 28, 2011

The getting the keepers back in is the trickiest part of the job. I magnetized a really skinny screwdriver but I wouldn't say it was very easy. It was just strong enough to hold the keeper up but they would spin around on the end of it - it was hard to get them to face the right way to drop them in. Lots of luck, patience and luck was involved. Someone must make a proper tool for this. If not, I'm inventing one.

Ha, ha, even plugging the holes, I still managed to dropped a couple down the oil return holes but was able to fish them out of the pan through the oil drain plug. I lost one somewhere in the K-member though and it broke my momentum 'cause I had to head to the store to find some extras.

N8Dogg98 · Feb 28, 2011

Not to derail, but I'll be installing some new cams in about a month. My car has 135K miles on it and burns about a quart of oil every 1500-3000 miles depending on how hard on it I am.

I've never noticed burning oil coming out of the tail pipes (blue smoke) except when I fire it up for the first time after sitting all winter. I've tried revving it after it's been idling for a while and never see the blue smoke associated with worn out valve seals.

Do you of you think the valve seals need replacement? If so it's probably very easy to do with the cams out and I'll go ahead and order some.

patman0911 · Feb 28, 2011

N8Dogg98 said:
Not to derail, but I'll be installing some new cams in about a month. My car has 135K miles on it and burns about a quart of oil every 1500-3000 miles depending on how hard on it I am.

I've never noticed burning oil coming out of the tail pipes (blue smoke) except when I fire it up for the first time after sitting all winter. I've tried revving it after it's been idling for a while and never see the blue smoke associated with worn out valve seals.

Do you of you think the valve seals need replacement? If so it's probably very easy to do with the cams out and I'll go ahead and order some.

A puff of bluish smoke upon revving after idling for a while is the tell-tale sign of valve stem seals so if you're not seeing that then they're probably not too bad yet.

It would be easier to do without the cams in the way but I can't verify that a standard OHV regular valve spring compressor will work on the 2V heads with the heads on the motor - the modular valve spring compressors all need the cam in place to work.

N8Dogg98 · Feb 28, 2011

patman0911 said:
A puff of bluish smoke upon revving after idling for a while is the tell-tale sign of valve stem seals so if you're not seeing that then they're probably not too bad yet.

It would be easier to do without the cams in the way but I can't verify that a standard OHV regular valve spring compressor will work on the 2V heads with the heads on the motor - the modular valve spring compressors all need the cam in place to work.

How would you compress and remove the springs if the heads were off? I'd imagine it would be the same process with the heads on the engine... only difference would be to use compressed air in the cylinder.

patman0911 · Feb 28, 2011

N8Dogg98 said:
How would you compress and remove the springs if the heads were off? I'd imagine it would be the same process with the heads on the engine... only difference would be to use compressed air in the cylinder.

Some of them are like big c-clamps that go around the head and hold the valve face on one side and compress the spring on the other. A lot of the tools for doing them on the motor look too bulky to fit in the cramped areas of the 2V heads. I'd want to know for sure that a particular tool will work before you set off to do it or else plan on doing them with the cams in place with the Trick Flow/OTC tool.

valve spring compressor - Google Search

N8Dogg98 · Feb 28, 2011

makes sense.. thanks for the help. I might just rent the valve spring compression tool from O'Reilly's and take a look when have the cams removed, if I can get the tool to work I'll replace them, if not I'll wait until I buy and install some ported heads.

1987stangman · Feb 28, 2011

Never thought about the tweezers. I will try that! Removing the cams would give more room and I started to do it but I would rather leave that alone since once I'm done with this the valve covers go back on and this guy can have his motor and I can move on to my gear instal on my 96'.

N8Dogg98: Mine was burning about a quart every 600 miles and would puff bluish smoke out leaving red lights or the driveway after letting it idle. The longer it idled, the more smoke it would emit. The engine had 170K or so on it but ran very well otherwise. If your going to be upgrading to aftermarket cams then you will need better valve springs anyways (unless your just upgrading from NPI to PI cams, not sure what year your car is, a 98?) If it were me, I would change the seals in any case. For me it was the #8 cyl as the plug was getting oil fouled.

If I get the time, I will take a pic of the old seals. You can visualy see the seals are bad.

VTGT91 · Mar 1, 2011

patman0911 said:
Some of them are like big c-clamps that go around the head and hold the valve face on one side and compress the spring on the other. A lot of the tools for doing them on the motor look too bulky to fit in the cramped areas of the 2V heads. I'd want to know for sure that a particular tool will work before you set off to do it or else plan on doing them with the cams in place with the Trick Flow/OTC tool.

valve spring compressor - Google Search

I've got a set of PI heads that im about to put onto my car. I am having trouble with this as well. Anyone have experience with different valve spring compressors that will work on these modular heads. Please let me know.

trinity_gt · Mar 1, 2011

For in situ valve spring work, this is the tool you want:

BTW, if a car is smoking and the valve seals are suspected, it's just as likely the car has valve guide issues (i.e. too much clearance.) Seal replacement will probably only help for a while before the smoky evidence returns. When you're in there check the valve's side to side movement looking to see if the guide is grossly worn.

N8Dogg98 · Mar 1, 2011

1987stangman said:
Never thought about the tweezers. I will try that! Removing the cams would give more room and I started to do it but I would rather leave that alone since once I'm done with this the valve covers go back on and this guy can have his motor and I can move on to my gear instal on my 96'.

N8Dogg98: Mine was burning about a quart every 600 miles and would puff bluish smoke out leaving red lights or the driveway after letting it idle. The longer it idled, the more smoke it would emit. The engine had 170K or so on it but ran very well otherwise. If your going to be upgrading to aftermarket cams then you will need better valve springs anyways (unless your just upgrading from NPI to PI cams, not sure what year your car is, a 98?) If it were me, I would change the seals in any case. For me it was the #8 cyl as the plug was getting oil fouled.

If I get the time, I will take a pic of the old seals. You can visualy see the seals are bad.

It's a '98 and I installed PI cams a couple years ago. I recently ordered some MHS stage 2 NPI N/A cams and don't need upgraded springs because I won't be shifting over 6500. I'll eventually buy some ported heads so I may just wait to change out the valve seals since I really don't ever see smoke out of my exhaust.

patman0911 · Mar 1, 2011

VTGT91 said:
I've got a set of PI heads that im about to put onto my car. I am having trouble with this as well. Anyone have experience with different valve spring compressors that will work on these modular heads. Please let me know.

The one TrinityGT posted is the one designed for Modulars - Trick Flow sells one for a very reasonable price or you can buy the Ford/OTC tool for a not as reasonable price (it's probably a better tool if you're doing lots of heads or a working mechanic). You have to leave the cams in with those tools because they hook on to the camshaft for leverage. Changing them with the heads out of the car should be a lot easier than doing them in the car though.

mogs01gt · Mar 1, 2011

Magnetic flat head plus a small amount gear grease. The grease puts some friction on the pieces and can old them together.

1987stangman · Mar 4, 2011

Thanks all for the suggestions, I finished it up last night. I stole a set of tweezers my wife had in her bathroom in some kit. Actually, once I got the hang of it I was done before I knew it.

patman0911 · Mar 4, 2011

How's it running? No smoke I hope.

1987stangman · Mar 4, 2011

patman0911 said:
How's it running? No smoke I hope.

The engine is still sitting on the stand waiting to be put into it's new home in a 97' F-150 as a replacment for the original 4.6. I will update this post at the end of the weekend on how it turns out if I have it all back together for the guy to drive.

1987stangman · Mar 16, 2011

Just figured I would update this thread. The owner of the F-150 that bought my old NPI engine came by my house yesterday with the truck running and he reports no smoke at all, infact the truck sat in my driveway idling for about 15 min while we talked and not one puff of smoke when he left.

Need some tips on valve seals for the people that have done it. (engine on stand)

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