New member introduction and a couple 289 questions

RangerMan · Oct 26, 2006

Hey Everyone,

A short background: My wife drives a 2002 V6 Mustang (5spd) and I drive a 2005 Subaru Legacy GT (5spd). Both stock and both are daily drivers. We have always wanted a classic Mustang and plan to purchase one after Christmas.

Want to find a ’65-’66, V8, manual transmission.

Disc brake conversion – probably do this before I do the engine for safety.
Suspension refresh (new components where I can) again for safety.
I want to do the suspension and brakes pretty much immediately – don’t trust 40 year old systems that control the car all that much.

Want to build up the 289 for decent power. Car will be 99% cruiser. Here are my “rough” plans for a 289 build up:

Block machined (bored over to clean up, decked)
New Crank - balanced
New Pistons / new con rods – balanced

Thinking Edelbrock Power Package for these:
Heads – RPM performer
Cam – RPM performer
Intake – RPM performer
Carb – 600 cfm

Obviously will need new lifters and pushrods

Headers
Water pump

Can I get 300hp out of this combination? 300rwhp?

Eventually want to upgrade transmission to a T-5

Of course money for body work and paint and interior.

I am thinking the whole project can be done for 25k over the course of a couple of years, is that reasonable? Obviously I am in the very early planning stages.

Anyways, I am here to learn!

LMan · Oct 26, 2006

welcome!

Your plan sounds reasonable and attainable to me, depending on what you start with, of course. Much more attainable with a coupe than a fastback or vert, though.

krallman · Oct 26, 2006

sounds pretty good. you could probably go with a little bit bigger carb. are you wanting rear disc brakes too? you can get front disc brakes off of a granada

RangerMan · Oct 26, 2006

Thanks guys.

Currently planning on just a front disc conversion, but still have a lot to learn. May entertain a rear brake conversion as well.

The hope is to find a car with as good a body as possible to reduce the body shop costs. I live in TX so at least I don't have 40 years of salt to worry about.

We are not sure if we want to do a coupe or fastback. Everyone says "fastback" but I actually like the way the coupe looks. My wife is on the fence. It will come down to the more solid car that we find.

ga289stocker · Oct 26, 2006

I highly recommend the rear disc upgrade. I did it on mine as i have kids that ride in car as well and wanted
the most stopping power i can get. It was a night and day difference from old drum brake rear's i had. I used the ssbc kit..fyi....

68RustBucket · Oct 26, 2006

you're not likely to need a new crank. They're beasts, and will take a hell of a lot of punishment. Same deal with your connecting rods. Get them reconditioned and shot-peened, and they'll be good to go. Those suckers can take a beating as well.

You will have saved a good chunk of change after not buying a new crank and rods, so treat yourself to some good pistons. I like the Keith Black KB281's. They save some weight over their less expensive sister piston, the KB115. Hypereutectic pistons are great for an N/A application such as what you described.

You might want to check out some of the options from Comp Cams. They have some well tested hydraulic and solid cams that work great for a hotrod 289. The XE274, XE268 (both hydraulic), and 282S (solid) are all cams that many people have had good experiences with in their 289s. It really depends on whether this will just be a smooth highway cruiser, or something you want to have the aggressive sound of the century.

alas, search these forums for answers. they will provide all you need.

RangerMan · Oct 26, 2006

Thanks for the rear brake info. I like being able to stop! I will check out the kits. A 4 wheel brake conversion would probably be the best idea...if I am going to do the front I might as well do the whole thing.

Also thanks for the crank and con rod info. If I can just put the cash into reconditioning and balancing them I would rather do that. As long as they aren't too bad I can just get oversized bearings.

John Z · Oct 26, 2006

Since your building a street machine, a 600 cfm carb is plenty, if anything it is too much! Do a search on carb size and you'll see this is a contraversial topic. Just throwing in my vote to counter balance the previous comment. 300 hp at the rear wheels means 350-370 at the crank. That is pretty stout but doable. Edel. shows with the proper combination of parts it can be done, but it takes spinning the engine to 6500 rpm. Better put the bottom end together with quality parts and car if you're going into this rpm range.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/7121pp.html

truck90278 · Oct 26, 2006

You might want to consider one of Fords crate engines. they come with a roller cam and the later block. Cost for a GOOD rebuild is probably about the same as a crate engine. Depending on how you want to drive the car, consider new gears such as 3.25 or 3.55 ratio. Your target of 25K is doable, but it does depend on what you can do yourself. One simple observation I see from many posted questions, get yourself a shop manual! From many of the questions, the posters don't have one. It only costs about $25.

RangerMan · Oct 26, 2006

A crate engine was recommended to me during lunch. Also not a bad idea considering I would probably have the shortblock built at the machine shop - I mean if they have the block, crank, con rods, pistons already there they might as well put it together so I don't have to bring everything home separately. 302 GT-40 heads is $3500k - that might even be cheaper than building it up myself. Advertised to be 345hp at the crank.

truck90278 · Oct 26, 2006

RangerMan said:
A crate engine was recommended to me during lunch. Also not a bad idea considering I would probably have the shortblock built at the machine shop - I mean if they have the block, crank, con rods, pistons already there they might as well put it together so I don't have to bring everything home separately. 302 GT-40 heads is $3500k - that might even be cheaper than building it up myself. Advertised to be 345hp at the crank.

and depending on where you buy it, It may have a warranty

1966conv · Oct 26, 2006

If you're already talking about a crate motor, redoing the suspension and brakes. Don't limit yourself to a V8 car. Also look at the 6 cyl's. It sounds like you'll be upgrading most of the changed parts anyway, so if the "Right" 6 cyl becomes available don't discount it.

This is another one of those "discussed" ideas on buying and converting or just buying a V8. I've rebuilt a V8 car and done a swap on a 6 cyl car. Guess what, I took all the old suspension, brakes, motors, trannys out and they're all sitting in my garage collecting dust and bird crap.

washMO66 · Oct 26, 2006

1966conv said:
If you're already talking about a crate motor, redoing the suspension and brakes. Don't limit yourself to a V8 car. Also look at the 6 cyl's. It sounds like you'll be upgrading most of the changed parts anyway, so if the "Right" 6 cyl becomes available don't discount it.

This is another one of those "discussed" ideas on buying and converting or just buying a V8. I've rebuilt a V8 car and done a swap on a 6 cyl car. Guess what, I took all the old suspension, brakes, motors, trannys out and they're all sitting in my garage collecting dust and bird crap.

Took the words right out of my mouth. You can greatly expand your search for a solid car if you include the 6 cyl cars. If I could do it all over again I would have gone that route because after buying a 289 car I changed all the suspension, engine and drive train anyway and I could have saved some cash on my initial purchase and most likely gotten a more solid car to start with. Lots of money can be sucked up in floor pans, sheetmetal and everything else that rusts on these cars. Spend your money wisely and plan the build up front so you only do things once (good luck).

More smart guys on here to help you than you can imagine. From the expert corner carvers, to the classic builders to the drag racers, you name it. There are even a couple of bull*****ters on here as well that make it interesting and fun.....

Welcome

RangerMan · Oct 26, 2006

Great point, and one that I was thinking about today - getting a I6 car and going from there. Plus I can get a solid running car for under $6k as opposed to the $6k fastback which is a rustbucket.

I need to search the I6 to V8 conversion. Since I already plan on doing brakes and suspension - 90% of the swap from my understanding, then it just might be the way to go. I would rather not spend $7k on bodywork. Hell, I would rather not spend $25k on the project but I will be realistic about it.

I guess another advatange of going the I6 route is that I can spend the first year or so getting the brakes, suspension, rear-end and all the other pieces either changed out or at least aquired and ready to go.

D.Hearne · Oct 27, 2006

One more thing to pay attention to in rebuilding a 289/302---- Watch the pin heights of the pistons. You want to get as close to a zero deck as you can. Off the shelf pistons pin heights for 289/302's run from 1.585 to 1.610, that little .025" difference can lower the comp ratio by as much as 1 point. Also you need to watch the combustion chamber sizes, factory 289 heads were 54cc's, aftermarket 302 heads are either 58 or 64, you want the 58's with a 289 then mill them a bit to get them down to 54. It takes very few cc's volume to make a big difference in the comp ratio in a small motor. Factory 289 rods are great, but the rod bolts suck. That's the weak link in the rods. All Ford pushrod V8's had forged rods, just some were better than others. If you do nothing else to the rods, install ARP rod bolts. The 289 cranks are also bullit proof, they've never been known to be weak.

washMO66 · Oct 27, 2006

Rangerman, did I mention that there were some smart guys on here? D. hearne is one of them.

Dang D. let the guy buy a car first before you start making his his head spin with your great big gear head brain!

RangerMan · Oct 27, 2006

D. Herne, thanks for the advice. I was wondering what the stock 289 comp chamber volume was...and now I know!

54cc, man that is small. Definitely need some machine work to bring it out.

What is generally accepted safe ratio for pump gas, 10:1, 10.5:1? By pump gas I mean 93 octane. Assuming Al heads. Is 54cc the best way to go and then adjust compression with pistons?

Also how big a role does quench area play in head selection and CR determination? I have heard that larger quench area effectively cools the cylinder allowing higher CR with less fear of detonation (effectively raising octane), but I assume that there is some trade off.

My current car is like 8.5 CR and requires 93 octane...oh yeah and has like 13 psi of boost

Can't wait to find something. I think post Christmas will be when we buy. Need a plan first and it is definitely coming together.

Platonic Solid · Oct 27, 2006

RangerMan said:
I am thinking the whole project can be done for 25k over the course of a couple of years, is that reasonable?

Theoretically Yes. Depending on who's doing the labor, all the obvious vehicle and component costs, and quality of the paint job you're looking for.

Do you want a project to play with or are you more interested in owning and driving a classic? If you lean more towards the latter you may be able to save yourself a substantial amount of money and hassle by buying one that’s already been restored.

Many have started with grand visions of idealistic automotive restorations only to find 4 years later the restoration isn’t complete, the car isn’t drivable, and you’ve permanently lost use of one garage bay because . . . well . . . Life Happens.

D.Hearne · Oct 28, 2006

The 331 I built (bored and stroked 302) had Aluminum heads (Canfields w/ 57 cc chambers) and a 10.4 to 1 ratio and was fine with 89-93 octane gas. Cam selection plays a big role here too. Longer overlap cams bleed off pressure allowing more in the static ratio. My 68 Merc's 390 runs on 89 with a 10.25 to 1 ratio and a Crane 272 degree Energizer cam. That cam choice was the only change from the stock motor with a 10.5 to 1 ratio. The small reduction in ratio was due to the head gasket change. With the stock cam before it, it would ping with 93 octane gas.

RangerMan · Oct 28, 2006

Platonic Solid said:
Theoretically Yes. Depending on who's doing the labor, all the obvious vehicle and component costs, and quality of the paint job you're looking for.

Do you want a project to play with or are you more interested in owning and driving a classic? If you lean more towards the latter you may be able to save yourself a substantial amount of money and hassle by buying one that’s already been restored.

Many have started with grand visions of idealistic automotive restorations only to find 4 years later the restoration isn’t complete, the car isn’t drivable, and you’ve permanently lost use of one garage bay because . . . well . . . Life Happens.

Project to play with is a big factor. My uncle has done this stuff before and I always admired that about him and want to be able to learn these skills myself.

New member introduction and a couple 289 questions

RangerMan

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68RustBucket

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