Official Tremec 3650 Issues Thread

Hey guys,

Glad I read through this (yes all 10 pages...) before I started scoping out for a Mustang. Kinda makes a guy pissed off just to hear about this, but just so you know, Ford isn't the only one with problems like this.

I currently own a '98 Sunfire GT and have been an active member of a GM J-Body website for almost two years. I have heard complaints like yours about the Getrag 5 speed that is found in '99 and newer Sunfires/Cavaliers for quite some time. All GM has suggested in their TSB's to the owners of these cars is to use either GM Syncromesh fluid or Saturn tranny fluid. With these tranny's there is a constant growling and many J-Body owners have been trying to find a solution forever...

From a car that costs from $13,000 to $24,000 (Canadian) I can almost (remember I said almost) find this acceptable but from a car like the Mustang with it's $25,000 to $40,000 (Canadian) price tag, I find this sad.

Being a former AOD driver, we had our own sets of problems while the T5 guys seemed to breaking thiers left and right but at the time the Mustang was basically a drag racing fiend and not much else. Now with the better suspension, more sophisticated engine and a much better overall look, this car is mared with a crappy tranny...hmmm...guess all that "Quality is Job One" crap is still just a marketing line...

Hopefully Ford steps up to the plate and does the right thing with a solution. I'd hate to see the revered Pony Car die off because of more of Ford's inabilty to solve it the right way.

Silver_'02_4.6 said:

Cudda-Transmission not a maintenance item, so I should never have to change fluid then right?

You still apparently don't understand percentages and my calculations. 250 people reported problems to Dewayne, that is 0.4% of all owners-meaning 99.6% owners don't have a problem to report. This means that 99.6% or roughly 59,000 manual GT owners could have posted positive and neutral experiences here and we would still have just 0.4% of owners reporting the same transmission problem. 0.4% is based upon the 250 reports to Dewayne of a grinding trans, which is the real minimum percentage of GT owners reporting a similar tranny problem here.

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I understand your numbers, I just don't think that 0.4% of people having trouble with a particular manual transmission means anything. Now we all know the real number is higher (not everyone uses StangNet), but because of the censorship that's happened here we will never know how high.

Silver_'02_4.6 said:

Why do you think your fix is number one? According to Ford, my car is normal, so they don’t believe there is any validity to your hype fix. Is your service manual a Ford manual?

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When I said it was number one, I meant that it was the first thing mentioned in a troubleshooting flowchart for gear grinding in a general do-it-yourself manual (Chilton). I know Chilton's not gospel, or even the Mustang manual, but the mounts do seem like an obvious thing to check. They affect drivetrain alignment, which affects where the shift stops locate the linkage in each gear.

Silver_'02_4.6 said:

One doesn’t have to spend a lot for a nice shifting trans. I own a manual Focus too and I expect much less out of it than my Mustang (4 Focus recalls and 3 warranty repairs not withstanding), but the odd thing is I have never heard so much as a peep out of the cheaper Focus’ transmission and the car is lightweight and I still have about an average 13% driveline loss. Point being, yes the Focus has much less power but an equally smooth transmission without penalties is definitely feasible for a more powerful car.

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The difference between your Focus and a GT is the torque level. Torque makes things difficult for transmission designers. The gears will be spinning longer, and with more force, after you press the clutch. Everything has to be heavier, and grinding is much more likely because of the higher energy level.

And regardless of what the loss is on any particular car, a stronger transmission will generally either cost more power or more money. Those are two things I am not willing to sacrifice to keep you all happy.

Silver_'02_4.6 said:

You’re the one that wants a check-but you claim not to have a problem.

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I don't want a check. I just don't want my transmission to be altered. I made the point that I would be OK with T3650 owners getting a check, but if there is a recall it will really put me in a quandary. I don't want my transmission to be altered (based on the top-notch performance my car has given me), but I don't want to be out-of-compliance with a recall. So what the hell am I supposed to do if there's a "fix?"

Silver_'02_4.6 said:

I imagine a supplier provides Ford's mounts, but the parts should be validated and fully understood before they are placed on a motor vehicle. Proper control processes in the manufacturing stream should reduce material variation. Yeah motor mounts wear out over time, but in less than a year and 6000 miles? I guess mine were toasted as I drove home from the dealership.

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I consider the stock Mustang motor mounts to be borderline defective even with 0 miles. This is just an example of too much emphasis on NVH, at the expense of functionality. Why do you find it so easy to believe that the T3650 is a defective design but not that the motor mounts are a defective design?

Silver_'02_4.6 said:

especially since your are only armed with your feelings towards this issue.

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Feelings? OK, since my car ran 13s stock, and since it never crunched gears at the track, in NINETY PASSES, I feel it has a great transmission. Do those count as hard numbers?

Silver_'02_4.6 said:

Jeez, in just two posts your root cause has gone from rolling reverse shifting and driveline misalignment to people just want T56’s and aren’t one with their cars-shaky ground here. Perhaps in the future you will be a bit more open minded and less accusing before attempting to crash a thread that many consider to have merit.

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I will be the first to admit that there may be several factors at play here. Transmissions are complicated. That doesn't make what I post contradictory; the transmission doesn't operate by itself in a vacuum. Besides, I am just about the only person here making any suggestions besides "the 3650 sucks."

Silver_'02_4.6 said:

Everyone here should know that Ford isn't going to put a T56 in for a 3650.

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BS- I am all too familiar with the T56-worship that goes on at this forum. Evan Smith called the T56 "the transmission that should be in every standard Mustang Ford sells," and I really think that at least a few of the people posting here believe that crap. They consider it a travesty that their cars don't have T56s.

Mister Stang said:

Hey guys,

Glad I read through this (yes all 10 pages...) before I started scoping out for a Mustang. Kinda makes a guy pissed off just to hear about this, but just so you know, Ford isn't the only one with problems like this.

I currently own a '98 Sunfire GT and have been an active member of a GM J-Body website for almost two years. I have heard complaints like yours about the Getrag 5 speed that is found in '99 and newer Sunfires/Cavaliers for quite some time. All GM has suggested in their TSB's to the owners of these cars is to use either GM Syncromesh fluid or Saturn tranny fluid. With these tranny's there is a constant growling and many J-Body owners have been trying to find a solution forever...

From a car that costs from $13,000 to $24,000 (Canadian) I can almost (remember I said almost) find this acceptable but from a car like the Mustang with it's $25,000 to $40,000 (Canadian) price tag, I find this sad.

Being a former AOD driver, we had our own sets of problems while the T5 guys seemed to breaking thiers left and right but at the time the Mustang was basically a drag racing fiend and not much else. Now with the better suspension, more sophisticated engine and a much better overall look, this car is mared with a crappy tranny...hmmm...guess all that "Quality is Job One" crap is still just a marketing line...

Hopefully Ford steps up to the plate and does the right thing with a solution. I'd hate to see the revered Pony Car die off because of more of Ford's inabilty to solve it the right way.

Click to expand...

Oh, nice. This is exactly why I think this thread should be LOCKED... or it should be DELETED. It perpetuates the typical stereotypes about Fords and Mustangs in general.

BTW, did you notice that J-body owners are having the same "problem?" Gosh, do you think there is some kind of similarity between that transmission and the 3650? Maybe the J-bodies use a sideways 3650?

Or maybe there is a similarity between the DRIVERS having both problems. Hmm....

CuddaWuddaShuda said:

Oh, nice. This is exactly why I think this thread should be LOCKED... or it should be DELETED. It perpetuates the typical stereotypes about Fords and Mustangs in general.

BTW, did you notice that J-body owners are having the same "problem?" Gosh, do you think there is some kind of similarity between that transmission and the 3650? Maybe the J-bodies use a sideways 3650?

Or maybe there is a similarity between the DRIVERS having both problems. Hmm....

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Hold on there a second. When I stated that some J-Body owners are having problems with their Getrag transmissions, I wasn't stating that they were having the same problem in their transmission nor stating that the Getrag and the Tremec are in anyway similar, just that they are getting a similar run around by GM. I was in fact reminding everyone that every car has problems and that issues like this are not unique to Ford and can happen with any modern car manufacturer where ultimately the bottom line decides a lot (like any good business should).

I have long been a Mustang supporter and absolutely love these cars. I have fought long and hard for Ford on many instances even though I currently own a General Motors product. You are correct that forum posts like these sometimes perpetuate negative thoughts and feelings towards Mustangs and Fords in general, but group forums like this also offers the opportunity for members to discuss the good along with the bad.

You may be correct in stating that the "DRIVERS" are the ones to blame that they may be complaining about something that doesn't really exist. I personally don't know because I don't currently own a Mustang with the 3650 nor do I own a J-Body with the Getrag. I can only hope that these people are not making up false accusations.

On one hand I couldn't agree with you more that people could take it upon themselves to check their tranny mounts but I also see the point of people who have paid $25,000 to get a car with full warantee and all they desire is for things to work properly or that their problems will be fixed under that warantee program.

I think we're all on the same side here. Those that are complaining just want their experience with their Mustang to be the best it can be. If we all ultimately didn't love Mustangs, why be here, right?

Originally Posted by CuddaWuddaShuda
"Or maybe there is a similarity between the DRIVERS having both problems. Hmm.."

Cudda, you are totally full of it.

I have been living with and researching this problem for over a year. The dealer performed the action per the TSB, no difference. Changed the trans, same problem plus two more the original didn't have. They admit there is a problem, there is no denying the grind when you drive it. They just don't know how to fix it.

I lowered the oil level from 4.2 to 3.2 quarts, guess what? The first shift out the driveway was smoother than EVER before. It still is rough for the first mile, rather than 20 miles like before. I don't consider it fixed, only less annoying. The 1 qt less made a big difference from what the dealer did the first time.

The root of the problem is a weak syncro that cannot develop enough cone friction to match the gear speeds before dog engagement. The drag from the gears churning through the oil is why either a lower level or hotter oil helps, but the trans is still faulty. The clash does not occur when downshifting into second, only upshifting, because of the relative input / output gear / shaft speeds.

Cudda, explain to me the cause / effect relationship between "soft / misaligined motor mounts, shifting into reverse while moving, or poor driving skills" and the problem of gear clash when the box is cold? No one denies there is a real problem except you. Ford plainly admits it in their TSB and recommends less vicious oil and a lower lever to "reduce the clash", but the problem is the syncro.

I (and many others) take major offense that you claim the fault is mine because I don't know how to shift, lets see... push in clutch, move lever down.....crunch. I shifted my gearbox about 1 million times in 200,000 miles in my last Stang, never a crunch. I'm a mechanic and engineer and have road raced for 25 years, and I did something to cause this problem? Brand new cars crunch as they are driven off the dealer's lot? Get off it! You don't have this problem because you are a superior shifter than the rest of us. I know you'll want to rebut this note with a new theory / claim, just butt out.

Does anyone know why Ford did away with the T 45 in the first place?
I can't find the reason anywhere. I've got 48,000 miles on my 99 GT and I have been beating on the car since I've owned it. Still as fast as the day I got it without any problems. My friend bought the same exact car that was black in 99 two weeks later. His was a lemon. After 5,000 miles he was having problems in every area imaginable. The car was shipped to another state for analysis. He complained up a storm because Ford's top engineers couldn't provide a true fix and they gave him a brand new car! I guess its just the luck of the draw. I've been damn lucky, and he hasn't had any problems either since the new car. I would just keep complaining and demand that they provide a fix. Sorry to get off topic.

mustom said:

Originally Posted by CuddaWuddaShuda
I lowered the oil level from 4.2 to 3.2 quarts, guess what? The first shift out the driveway was smoother than EVER before. It still is rough for the first mile, rather than 20 miles like before. I don't consider it fixed, only less annoying. The 1 qt less made a big difference from what the dealer did the first time.

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I think the lower capacity helps the fluid warm up faster. It may also prevent windage (churning).

mustom said:

The root of the problem is a weak syncro that cannot develop enough cone friction to match the gear speeds before dog engagement. The drag from the gears churning through the oil is why either a lower level or hotter oil helps, but the trans is still faulty. The clash does not occur when downshifting into second, only upshifting, because of the relative input / output gear / shaft speeds.

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I agree. I do think a stronger synchro would increase shifting effort.

mustom said:

Cudda, explain to me the cause / effect relationship between "soft / misaligined motor mounts, shifting into reverse while moving, or poor driving skills" and the problem of gear clash when the box is cold?

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If the position of the transmission is unpredictable our out-of-spec, then the position of the shift rails in each gear will be unpredictable or out-of-spec. If you don't understand this, think about what would happen if you moved transmission up 1" relative to the rest of the drivetrain and changed nothing else. Geometry dictates that the linkage position would be different in each gear.

mustom said:

I (and many others) take major offense that you claim the fault is mine because I don't know how to shift, lets see... push in clutch, move lever down.....crunch.

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There is a misconception in your post: that you ought to be able to do anything while the clutch is down without a crunch. That just doesn't apply with a high-torque engine because the gears are still spinning with considerable force even after you push the clutch down. Tremec could correct this by using heavier parts in the transmission, but why should they? In my experience, crunching can be prevented if you make an effort in your shifting style to prevent them.

mustom said:

I'm a mechanic and engineer and have road raced for 25 years, and I did something to cause this problem?

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A good engineer would not have any problem understanding the relationship between transmission mount position and gear grinding.

But, I never said you did anything to cause this problem. I just think that

1) The tone of this thread (legalistic and censorious) is all wrong.

2) You all should look for a simple solution first AND

3) There is a conflict here over the nature / definition of a Mustang. There are some things in mathematical proofs that are so simple you don't even need to use theory, you can use a definition. For example, you don't need to prove a triangle has three sides. It's just assumed. Similarly, I think it ought to be assumed that most Mustangs should sacrifice all else in the quest for two things: economy of purchase, and acceleration. There are plenty of cars out there with smooth rides, silky, idiot-proof shifters, electronic gizmos, mind-boggling interiors, etc. A Mustang should be only adequate in those areas. It should not sacrifice economy of purchase or acceleration to have a smooth shifter. Now I don't have any problem with putting the T56 in the '03 Cobra. That is an all-out car that excels in just about every area. The GT, on the other hand, is supposed to be economical. There's no reason it should have a transmission that's any more than adequate.

mustom said:

I know you'll want to rebut this note with a new theory / claim, just butt out.

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I will not butt out because of the posts that asked for "negative posts only." The minute I read that, I smelled blood.

"If the position of the transmission is unpredictable our out-of-spec, then the position of the shift rails in each gear will be unpredictable or out-of-spec. If you don't understand this, think about what would happen if you moved transmission up 1" relative to the rest of the drivetrain and changed nothing else. Geometry dictates that the linkage position would be different in each gear."

Movement of the transmission on it's mounts does not misalign anything; the linkage and stops are all internal. The stick comes straight out of the housing. On a car with linkage rods between the stick and the gearbox, excessive movement on the mounts could cause an under or overshift, but not on this car. It has nothing to do with it.

"It may also prevent windage (churning)"

Windage refers to the pumping of air inside and engine, it has nothing to do with this problem. There is a vent to allow for thermal expansion of air inside.

"3) There is a conflict here over the nature / definition of a Mustang."

The point is there is something wrong with the transmission in a good percentage of these cars. If yours has the problem and you are OK with the grind or shift slow enough to prevent it, that up to you. If yours shifts properly, you're lucky. It has nothing to do with the driver, and is a real problem in many cars. Ford uses the phrase "some cars" in their TSB on the issue.

I find the problem unacceptable and want it corrected. There are many reasons to take your new car back to the dealer with complaints, some serious, some not. I shouldn't have to modify the way I shift to make up for a weak syncro, and the crunching does not make for long life or reliability.

"2) You all should look for a simple solution first"

Like 8 trips to the dealer to diagnose, change oil, diagnose again, change trany, diagnose again, meet with manger, meet with field service, tell you to wait till it gets so bad the'll put in a third transmission? Our should I just pull it apart myself at my expense?

"That just doesn't apply with a high-torque engine because the gears are still spinning with considerable force even after you push the clutch down. Tremec could correct this by using heavier parts in the transmission, but why should they? In my experience, crunching can be prevented if you make an effort in your shifting style to prevent them."

How come with otherwise indentical cars, some crunch some don't. Style has nothing to do with it. My crunching didn't start till after 5K miles, and my "style" has not changed.

CuddaWuddaShuda said:

Are you coming to a complete stop before you go into reverse? According to the owner's manual, you are supposed to.

I don't know about the T3650, but one time I tried shifting a T5 into reverse while rolling slightly, and it made a noise like the world was coming to an end.

Now looking back at this thread, I see a lot of people complain that the transmission grinds going into reverse. I don't really see how that could happen at a dead stop, and this makes me wonder how many of the problems with the 3650 are due to people shifting into reverse on a roll.

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this happens when ever i try to put in reverse in compleate stopusualy when this happens, which is just about every time, I put in in 1st. sometimes it works. when it doesn't, then well, you hold it there and let it grind, untill it goes in. usually about 3 seconds later.
Sorry it took me a while to replay to this

Well, maybe someone will get it fixed on their own nickel if they're sick enough of living with the problem. Make sure you already have service papers from three or more times where the dealer couldn't confirm the problem. Get a book from NOLO Press in Berkeley, CA on suing in small claims court.

Take them to a small claims court for reimbursement for your replacement unit. In the People’s Republic of CA the limit is $5000.00. I don't think it matters much what model replacement you put in it. They have waived their opportunity to make it right by their ignoring the problem.

Make sure you take a printed out copy of all the pages on this thread and any others from other websites. They can't deny people have the problem with that weight of evidence. It would be great to nail their butts one small claims court case at a time. They will have to pay someone in their org to stand in front of a judge. Eventually the dealers will pressure Ford. Sue Ford and the dealership. You only have to prove you were damaged.

Let the judge figure out which one pays. You could use the Lemon Law but then you have to give up the car. I'd rather have a Mustang -- but without this problem.

If this works for one person it could be repeated until Ford comes up with a 'better idea'. So keep trading notes...

I still think these are pretty nice cars with this one stupid problem they need to fix.

Chas.

mustom said:

"If the position of the transmission is unpredictable our out-of-spec, then the position of the shift rails in each gear will be unpredictable or out-of-spec. If you don't understand this, think about what would happen if you moved transmission up 1" relative to the rest of the drivetrain and changed nothing else. Geometry dictates that the linkage position would be different in each gear."

Movement of the transmission on it's mounts does not misalign anything; the linkage and stops are all internal. The stick comes straight out of the housing. On a car with linkage rods between the stick and the gearbox, excessive movement on the mounts could cause an under or overshift, but not on this car. It has nothing to do with it.

"It may also prevent windage (churning)"

Windage refers to the pumping of air inside and engine, it has nothing to do with this problem. There is a vent to allow for thermal expansion of air inside.

"3) There is a conflict here over the nature / definition of a Mustang."

The point is there is something wrong with the transmission in a good percentage of these cars. If yours has the problem and you are OK with the grind or shift slow enough to prevent it, that up to you. If yours shifts properly, you're lucky. It has nothing to do with the driver, and is a real problem in many cars. Ford uses the phrase "some cars" in their TSB on the issue.

I find the problem unacceptable and want it corrected. There are many reasons to take your new car back to the dealer with complaints, some serious, some not. I shouldn't have to modify the way I shift to make up for a weak syncro, and the crunching does not make for long life or reliability.

"2) You all should look for a simple solution first"

Like 8 trips to the dealer to diagnose, change oil, diagnose again, change trany, diagnose again, meet with manger, meet with field service, tell you to wait till it gets so bad the'll put in a third transmission? Our should I just pull it apart myself at my expense?

"That just doesn't apply with a high-torque engine because the gears are still spinning with considerable force even after you push the clutch down. Tremec could correct this by using heavier parts in the transmission, but why should they? In my experience, crunching can be prevented if you make an effort in your shifting style to prevent them."

How come with otherwise indentical cars, some crunch some don't. Style has nothing to do with it. My crunching didn't start till after 5K miles, and my "style" has not changed.

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The internal rails do make a differnce. But there are still situations where mount wear could be a factor... e.g. if the transmission is sitting in a position that is rotated slightly to one side or the other, you will basically be missing gears (and grinding) unless you are compensating for the rotated position with your arm.

As far as "windage" goes, I always figured that term applied wherever lubricant and air mix... if that's not true, then "my bad."

Some of the 3650s have clearly come from the factory improperly assembled. To a certain extent, though, I do think that much of what people are complaining about is just the nature of the beast, and part of driving a manual is adjusting to the clutch / shifter in whatever car one happens to be driving.

Hard To Believe

Hard to believe the trans could be poorly factory manufactured - I believe the Tremecs are made in Mexico, and we know what fine craftsman and technicians they are. (tounge firmly in cheek)

I think they were at first, but there not now, at least I think so. I'm pretty sure they are assembled on the East Coast now, but the 02 and up model are still haveing troubles but not as bad as the 01 models. My 01 went out 3 times within 10,000 miles and bone stock. Now after 4th time I put about 500 miles on it and then put a shifter on it and 3 quarts of Royal Purple fluid in it and have had 3000 trouble free miles on it, with the mods being a shifter, fluid, Mac CAI, offroad x-pipe, & flowmasters

I just want to add my two cents-- I'm not attacking any point of view.

I previously owned a BMW... which gave me absolute hell for a year and a half before i dumped it over at my uncles house where it is sitting and rotting in his driveway. it was a 1999 model 3 series by the way.
Her tranny sucked. Her motor sucked. The car itself was the biggest dissapointment ever.
The transmission was always locking, grinding, banging, and popping out of gear. I would miss 3rd constantly and sometimes i couldnt even push it into first gear off of a light.
Dealer said its all normal. yeah. with 32 thousand miles on it. ok.

Engine was toasted, somehow the heads warped and lifters collapsed. I babied this car the day i got it. never drove it hard. Lemon? maybe, if many other BMW owners didnt feel the way I did and didnt have those problems. but they did.

I dumped it over there, its for sale, and i feel bad for whoever buys it. If i dont sell it, i lose 30 grand. its bull**** but BMW didnt want to be bothered, even after 7 months of hounding them with letters and visits. **** that.

I now own an 03 GT with 1100 miles on it. Sure the transmission is noisy, but its also a HELL of a lot better than the 32 thousand dollar BMW i owned before this, believe it or not. My point is that this **** happens with all cars of all brands.
I'm a valet, and I drive all sorts of cars, from **** boxes to Rolls Royces. My conclusion: there are cars in EVERY class that SUCK!
Many BMW's i drive feel like they are made of paper mache, and sound like an erector set.
Many mercedes i drive have bad lifter tick noises and suspension squeeks and clunks. And 90% of them are 2000 models and up.

Youre gonna get this **** whether it's a high end car or not. people cut corners. especially dealers. its a fact.

I say: enjoy the car for what it is. it has its own personality, its own way of "performing."

I agree with you guys who cant shift the car or the tranny locks out of gear: that SUCKS. it ****in happened with my BMW on almost EVERY shift. now theres a problem. but, with trannies that have a little bump or clunk here and there, dont worry about it. thinking about it will just aggrivate the **** out of you. Trust me, it happened to me.


Good luck to the people with the tranny probs. I know what a pain in the ass it is to get through the dealers' thick skulls. my only advice: try and get through to the top. only they can help when the others below them refuse.

Welp . . . I had the tranny fluid drained & switched today. After reading the entire "Official Tremec 3650 Issues Thread" @ http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=328655, I figured I should try it.

I took it to a local Instant Oil Change, explained exactly what I needed added, (Valvoline Dextron III / Mercon) and the amount. Now, I know I could have done this myself, but really wasn't comfortable doing it. For $20+ bucks, and peice of mind, it was worth having these guys do it.

Anyway, I coulda kicked myself in the ARSE!!!! Once I got there, I forgot if it was 3.2 Quarts or 3.2 Liters on the refill. I knew the conversion was very close but couldn't remember. OF COURSE, I picked the wrong one , and told them 3.2 Quarts! I don't think it's a huge deal. I just now have 3.3 liters in their now. I'll remember next time.

Just FYI: 3.2 liter = 3.3814023 quarts

I didn't hear any clings/clunks, but then again the car was already warmed up, and I only had a short drive back to work. But, as with every drive, I'll keep my ear out for any changes.

(cross reply from my original post: http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=354723 before I knew of this thread)

1st gear grind will not go in

I have a 2001 gt and the tremrec sucks it has been out of my car three times..the first was because the clutch decided to spit itself out .(not suposed to happen) was driving normal pushed in cluch and pedle whent to the floor, lost the lining on the disc.....now have added a centerforce duel friction and the car will not go into 1st gear with out stopping and waiting 1min for everything to stop moving have been told posibly bent shift fork (Right from factory) bad syncroes,blocking rings I am going to ford to see what they are going to do ,I an not the only one with this problem and want it fixed asap...........