Panhard without Torque Arm?

huesmann · Jul 9, 2004

Is there any advantage in running a panhard bar on a stock 4-link suspension without a torque arm?

Is there any disadvantage?

Rio96 · Jul 9, 2004

A panhard will help your cornering.
It won't help you at the dragstrip.
...
A torque arm would help at the dragstrip.

85GTlover · Jul 9, 2004

you would get more out of the panhard if you got the torque arm then you could get rid of your UCA's and drag shocks. But you must run the torque arm to do that. A good set of UCA's and LCA's would be better. Or good bottoms and panhard then torque arm later and ditch the stock uppers. I don't think there is a disadvantage, just the cost of an rather expensive mod that is not reaching its potential. Good control arms might be as good as just a panhard alone, but if you have both it is supposed to be kick ass.

Cali03Boss · Jul 10, 2004

torque arm will help you in turns as well. I have one installed with a panhard bard. I think one requires the other. In fact im pretty sure of it. Go to MaximumMotorsports.com and check it out.

huesmann · Jul 10, 2004

But is there any disadvantage to running just the panhard while I save up for the torque arm and the new springs it'll require?

Aaron 4.6 · Jul 10, 2004

No. You can run a PHB without a T/A. You cannot run a T/A without a PHB. The PHB will provide MUCH better location of the axle compared to your UCAs and will change the rear roll center height of the suspension.

madmatt · Jul 10, 2004

Sorry to hijack, but would anyone mind explaining what all of this means. What the panhard bar and torque arm do. How they affect things in the sense of drag racing and also road racing. Thanks

Aaron 4.6 · Jul 10, 2004

Stock suspension:

Upper control arms- responsible for locating the axle laterally and for controlling axle windup or "twist". Serves both functions adequately when driven away from the limits of adhesion. Under hard cornering or acceleration, the geometry causes binding and unpredictable behavior.

Modified suspension-

Panhard Bar. A ~3 foot long bar mounted horizontally that is tied to the chassis at one point and the axle at the other. The PHB prevents the axle from moving side-to-side under lateral loading.

Torque arm. A suspension member the attaches to the axle and then mounts farther forward to control axle windup. When coupled with a PHB, the torque arm allows for elimination of the factory upper control arms because the two functions the UCAs serve have been given to different components.

With the TA/PHB, the suspension is free to articulate without nearly as much binding, resulting in far superior predictability under hard driving. There are some great suspension books out there if this subject interests you. I think it is well beyond the scope of this forum to go into great detail, but there are other sources available.

huesmann · Jul 10, 2004

Does anyone besides Griggs and Maximum Motorsports make a panhard bar + torque arm combo?

Cali03Boss · Jul 10, 2004

Steeda makes their 5 link suspension...comes with a panhard...and i think their new gen 2 for rear exit exhaust has a torque arm

huesmann · Jul 10, 2004

But the Steeda parts don't involve a torque arm, do they?

Aaron 4.6 · Jul 10, 2004

No. Steeda relocates the UCAs in their 5 link kit. The new UCAs are parallel to the long axis of the car. That allows them to control axle windup without interfering by trying to locate the axle laterally.

madmatt · Jul 10, 2004

This is why I love stangnet. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain that too me. I may have to go buy a good book to read a little deeper, but thanks a ton.

68 & 00 GT · Jul 11, 2004

good info guys. Let me be clear. If you run a PHB, and T-ARM you can take the UCA's out completely ? Or would you just leave them in anyway ? Can these set up clear rear exhaust ? I just want straight line from a dead stop traction. Which combo of parts shoud I get ?

silver4.6 · Jul 11, 2004

If you add a T/A and phb then you will not need UCA.
A phb will help in cornering but won't do anything in the 1/4. All it does is help
locate the rear axle in side to side motion. The Torque Arm will help in the 1/4, how much I don't know. The T/a will help with axle wind up, meaning it will allow the rear
axle to apply more power to the axle's, instead of the axle housing rotating slightly before it applies full power to the tires like in the stock suspension.

I just installed a MM phb in my car a couple of weeks ago, and it makes a MAJOR difference
at initial turn in. The stock suspension bushings & control arms allow a little play to prevent bind, thus allowing some side to side movement and in turn allowing rear stear. With the phb it virtually does away with all side to side motion and allows a smooth transition from straight away to cornering. Just be careful of exhaust clearance when installing the phb, if your not careful you will have some contact between the phb mount and exhaust piping (i.e. rattle). And MAKE SURE you have a good drill and drill bits (several different sizes) to make it through the frame rail. Also be careful of what kit you buy, some phb kits will bolt to the floor of the trunk, thus allowing flex and defeating the whole purpose of the phb. Make sure it bolts the the frame rails.

Redfire03GT · Jul 11, 2004

So does anyone know if the MM set up or the Griggs set up connect to the floor-board or are they set up properly?

Also, for those of us with weight concerns, will the added benefits of the PHB and T/A offset the added weight? My main concern is straight line. I want to be able to put the absolute most power to the ground in the most effective manner while still maintaining near stock, stock or below stock weight.

Aaron 4.6 · Jul 11, 2004

I wouldn't get too excited about this type of setup for a drag race application. Some weight jacking LCAs and double adjustable UCAs are probably smarter solutions with less packaging constraints. Guys like Mustang92 can provide a solid basis for a cheap drag rear suspension.

Cali03Boss · Jul 11, 2004

Aaron 4.6 said:
I wouldn't get too excited about this type of setup for a drag race application. Some weight jacking LCAs and double adjustable UCAs are probably smarter solutions with less packaging constraints. Guys like Mustang92 can provide a solid basis for a cheap drag rear suspension.

Aaron hit it right in the nut. This setup is ideal for road racing and autox applications. The extra componants are not setup for drag racing. I took my car drag racing with all this crap on it and pulled mid 13s, when i thought i could do better. Just get some lightwight LCAs and UCAs

huesmann · Jul 11, 2004

Well, I was asking about it for street and/or OT/AX, so no worries about 1320 for me. I'm sure you straight-line guys would be better-served by stiffer and/or lighter control arms or bushings.

I know the MM panhard connects to the frame rail because they have install instructions on their site which I read, and you have to drill bolt holes through the frame rail.

So does anyone know whether or not there's another mfg who makes a panhard/TA combo besides Griggs and MM?

steeda46 · Jul 12, 2004

When using panhard/tq arm, when can you remove the quad shocks?

Panhard without Torque Arm?

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