Problem with new mustang

SVTdriver · Feb 9, 2004

However the reality is a home you live in. Is only an investment that makes you money. When you get rid of it. But if you buy a house and rent it out. You gain all the equity none of the payments. AND it earns you money without having to get rid of it.

351CJ · Feb 9, 2004

I said a few post ago that investment real estate was also something that is also acceptable to borrow money for. As you say it can be both an appreciating asset as well as a current income generator. But if you are doing rental properties you have to have the right temperment for it. I don't but some friends of mine have done very well with rental properties.

Thanks to home equity loans and equity lines of credit, you can tap into your home's appreciated value today. Or you can look at your home as your retirement savings account. If you want to live in your retirement account there are reverse mortgages too.

If you read back, the discussion started with someone else's advice to not borrow money to buy cars, which was good advise because 99.99% of all cars are depreciating assets. When you're done paying it off, you have something that is worth much less than when you started out. With homes and investment real estate they are usually worth more than the purchase price when the loan is paid off, thus more than covering the cost of the loan.

Ron Jeremy · Feb 9, 2004

There's really some good advice in here for the people who work just to pay their car payments.

As for equity loans, I would keep away from them. They do nothing but increase the mortgage in your home and also add on years to your mortgage. Equity loans are one of the reasons why people are having a very hard time paying their mortgage nowadays. They tapped out too much money out of their homes and ballooned their mortgages. That is a bad way to do things. The equity loan mortgage business is nothing but a BIG SCAM. They put you deeper in debt.

skywarp · Feb 9, 2004

Not for nothing, I just jumped in. Why the hell are we talking about houses for?

Ron Jeremy · Feb 9, 2004

I guess people are trying to give examples. That's all.

mp67 · Feb 10, 2004

Borrowing money for a car as a toy is not a good idea. But consider the daily driver family car. You can't afford to pay cash. You need transportation for work, kids to school or day care, grocery store etc.. You have to look at that as a must have and not look at it as a depreciation. The four or five years or however long you have it is its value. The use that you get out of it. The ability to function as a family depends on a car. Thats the value you get out of it by financing. Nothing is free. So in that regard, its a good investment.

falchulk · Feb 10, 2004

Ron, your take on equity loans is wrong. You can take a seperate equity loan out while paying your standard mortgage. So if your mortgage is $500 a month, you can take a loan out for a car and pay $300 at the same time for only 5 years. This is without extending the motgage at all. You are just using your house to borrow against. To tell you the truth, not many people could buy a 25000 car outright. I bought a $17000 car last year outright and it drained me. No matter what your personal money theory is,for most people controlled finanacing is the way to go. They would never own a car otherwise. For example, I have around $2500 in disposable income a month after all bills. I can save my money, without spending much on anything else for a year to buy a 2005. Or I can put down 10k and pay 2600 in financing charges over 5 years at 6%. Thats $43 a month. For a brand new car, to me thats worth it and I would be helping the economy. People borrowing money is what employees other people.

Not to mention I would have around 20k to live and invest.

spanky442 · Feb 10, 2004

This is actually pretty funny. I started this thread about how I feel the Mustang is creeping up in price out of the average consumer's price range, which it was originally intended to attract. But it seems this has become more about real estate, which I find funny because I am actually a mortgage broker. Well anyway, a house is the largest investment almost anyone will make. The thing about real estate is that it will go up in value no matter what. It may go up and down, but no matter what you know your house will be worth more than what you originally paid for it when you are done. But after you add in interest rates and taxes and maintainence, etc, you pretty much break even. But a house is not a car. A car deprieciates in value some more than other and usually does not come back in value unless its a Shelby or something exotic and rare. Cars also do not last as long as real estate. Real estate is by far the best investment one can make. Ecspecially now with interest rates so low. But on the flip side, housing prices are going up. If you got the cash to burn on a $30K toy, then god bless you. But I would rather put the money into something more stable like real estate. Many people get themselves into debt before they even buy a house. When time comes to buy they have bad credit and are too far in debt to be able to afford a mortgage. My suggestion for someone looking to buy a home would be to pay off a much debt as possibe and not add new debt, like buying a new car. Once you get into your house and are all settled, and you really want something, come up with a budget. Make sure you have enough to save and for emergency and figure how much you could afford. Then go out and tell these dealers what you want to pay.

spanky442 · Feb 10, 2004

One more thing, I had and old professor who best described the real estate market vs. other markets for goods and services. "The real estate market is like and ocean liner, its huge, made up of different levels and is slow to turn." All this basically means is that the real estate market is large, you got different levels such as industrial, commercial, residential, urban, suburban, agricultural, high class, mid-class, low class, etc. The market does not go into sharp dives or spikes, it is gradual and prices go up slowly or down slowly. Lets say your home is worth $300K today its not going to lose $100 overnight. It may happen in a year or two but not instant, unless some catastrophic happens. A car on the other hand is worth $25K the day you buy it, by the time you drive it home from the dealer its worth $20K. I had a wise professor!

mp67 · Feb 10, 2004

spanky442 said:
But a house is not a car. A car deprieciates in value some more than other and usually does not come back in value unless its a Shelby or something exotic and rare. Cars also do not last as long as real estate. Real estate is by far the best investment one can make.

Sticking to cars, specifically the 05 mustang, most people that buy these will use them as daily transportation. Some just as a toy. Daily transportation is not an investment, as most cars are not. Your return on your money is the use you get out of it. I'm into classics. But I do not see it as an investment. I don't expect to get the money back that I put in. Its just fun. Fun costs money. If you take a vacation and spend 3k or more, what do you get in return? Fun and memories. Is a vacation therefore a bad investment? There are few cars to consider as an investment, and then those are the ones you won't drive for fear of messing up the appreciation. On the subject of the 05 outpricing itself for the target group, I think that is wrong. It has no direct competition in the V8, rear drive, two door, 4 passenger sport section. So you have to compare it with cars that cost much more. If you look in the same or less price range, its competition will be mostly front drive six's and 4's, sedans. 25k is not to bad for it. And thats just sticker. If everyone did not want to be the first to buy, they could get a better deal. Case in point: Mach 1. Was selling for sticker at first, now discounted as much as 7k in my area. If I decide to go with a new GT, I'll wait a year and pick one up for low 20's. And that will be new. Its a mass production vehicle and they will discount them like every other mass produced vehicle.

XtorT'r · Feb 10, 2004

spanky442 said:
Well, thats the thing, in order for the Mustang to compete, they will have to go against cars like the WRX and EVO which do command $25K-35K. But those cars have the mustang beat as far as reliability and fuel economy etc. Plus some of those cars are faster than the GT. In order to compete you need to go with a Cobra which is in the $30-40 range. Ford seems to be aiming the new stang to higher end markets. Yeah you can get a V6 for $20 and a base GT for $25 but a new cobra will be $35 +. The mustang is an old name. It has been around for a long time and they are making it to retro and it is still a Ford. There are no brembo brakes, koni suspension, etc. The T-Bird was the same way, it looked nice, it brought back memories, but it did not offer anything spectacular.

Ok buddy.... I think you need to look into what you said more. Yes the Evo and the WRX MIGHT have better MPG's (STi gets 18/24 prolly need premium) (Evo gets 18/26 and needs premium) (2005 Will be comparable in Mpg and use 87 )

And as far as reliability goes. No way!... No how, will ford make a less reliable product than Subaru or Mitsubishi. Heck, Mitsubishi got busted for covering up defects in thier cars for over 10 years. Mitsubishi has to prove it's self, not ford. And as for Subaru, I know a few WRX owners and those things sound like big piles of Junk. All I ever hear is ruined heads/pistons/rings/transmissions. One owner told me that there are major components in the tranny that are made out of some type of plastic! These cars have only been on the streets for a couple years.
Don't assume that all Japanese cars are as good as Toyota. At times our Mustangs have better reliability ratings than Honda Civics!

Also, I know that those cars can take up in 0-60 and sometimes in the quarter mile but When your already movin on the highway we can give them a real run for their money(At least I can).

Sory I read that and had to respond :OT:

mp67 · Feb 10, 2004

XtorT'r said:
Also, I know that those cars can take up in 0-60 and sometimes in the quarter mile but When your already movin on the highway we can give them a real run for their money(At least I can). :

Yeah, their low end is good, but its because of the all wheel drive. They hook up good. But as a lot of owners find out, when you drop the hammer at 5000k with all wheel drive, those plastic parts trannies tend to drop.

spanky442 · Feb 10, 2004

Well, I think the mustang is getting more out of range for the average consumer. As far as reliability, that is one thing Ford is not well-known for. Every auto manufacturer has had and will have defects. GM I feel is going down hill. Ford I think is finally started to wake up. Toyota and Honda are just cars that everyone knows they'll run forever that is why people buy them. Subaru I always see with 200K + miles. Mitsu, well I know the older ones were junk but lately they have gotten better. The *** cars do get decent gas milage, they do last longer, they are reasonably priced, and they can be driven anywhere all year long. This is going to appeal to more people in this day and age. I not saying that Ford should change the Mustang. But if the price gets beyond what people can afford, they are going to go for the more practical performance cars. I see it even with kids today. They want nothing to do with mustangs or camaros. They are going for these other cars because they can afford them and drive them everyday. Plus I thinks its easier to get your parents to let you buy a honda civic than it would be to get a mustang. Everyone else is out buying their Z's, M3's, S4's, AMG's etc. The leaves us, a dying breed of Mustang fanatics. If the price keeps rising less people will be able to afford them.

Ron Jeremy · Feb 10, 2004

Spanky442,

That's what I've been trying to tell everybody in here, but they just don't acknowledge this. They don't mind paying the price for the Mustang GT because they are uneducated. They think that just because an average decent car out there today costs around $25,000-$30,000 that this price is a fair price. NOT! All cars are OVERPRICED. A nice car shouldn't sell for more than $12,000-$14,000 AT THE MOST. Stupid people who buy cars don't accept the fact that cars are overpriced. They just go out there and buy them. Then auto manufacturers keep raising the prices because they got the buyers by the balls. Auto manufacturers know that everyone needs a car and that automobiles are an important necessity in life so they jack up the prices even more. That's why cars cost so much. Because stupid people who buy these overpriced cars don't complain to the manufacturers. If they did and if they boycott themselves from buying cars they would be throwing the monkey wrench at the auto manufacturers. There would be a huge decline in automobile sales and manufacturers would have no choice but to lower the prices drastically on all brand new cars. But the idiots who are the consumers have been dumbed down and they are too stupid to think like this. The concept would work if everybody would stop buying new and used cars. The prices would plummet to the 1970's levels. And don't tell me that it's impossible and that this cannot happen. All that we have to do is to stop buying cars from dealers. Boycotting works if it's done the correct way. There is nothing better than using rage against the machine.

XtorT'r · Feb 10, 2004

Ron Jeremy said:
Spanky442,

That's what I've been trying to tell everybody in here, but they just don't acknowledge this. They don't mind paying the price for the Mustang GT because they are uneducated. They think that just because an average decent car out there today costs around $25,000-$30,000 that this price is a fair price. NOT! All cars are OVERPRICED. A nice car shouldn't sell for more than $12,000-$14,000 AT THE MOST. Stupid people who buy cars don't accept the fact that cars are overpriced. They just go out there and buy them. Then auto manufacturers keep raising the prices because they got the buyers by the balls. Auto manufacturers know that everyone needs a car and that automobiles are an important necessity in life so they jack up the prices even more. That's why cars cost so much. Because stupid people who buy these overpriced cars don't complain to the manufacturers. If they did and if they boycott themselves from buying cars they would be throwing the monkey wrench at the auto manufacturers. There would be a huge decline in automobile sales and manufacturers would have no choice but to lower the prices drastically on all brand new cars. But the idiots who are the consumers have been dumbed down and they are too stupid to think like this. The concept would work if everybody would stop buying new and used cars. The prices would plummet to the 1970's levels. And don't tell me that it's impossible and that this cannot happen. All that we have to do is to stop buying cars from dealers. Boycotting works if it's done the correct way. There is nothing better than using rage against the machine.

Well this is true to a point but you have to remember that alot of it is because all cars are taxed to hell and back. Every time a part is shipped a tire is purchased at piston is forged there is a tax on it. This all must be passed down to the consumer. Our buddies that we elect in govenment knw that people will continue to buy cars no matter what the price so they increase the taxes. As if thats not enough you can fight back and buy an import because if they cost less to produce than the comparable domestic it will have heavy tarrifs. I have seen that it the price of an automobile in finished form can 50-80% tax. It's not just the auto manufacturers that raise the cost, as a matter of fact I bet they would love to price certain cars to the floor to beat thier competition.

Ron Jeremy · Feb 10, 2004

It would really be nice to see car prices go thru the floor into the basement and down into the core of the earth. I am sick and tired of seeing car prices edge upwards little by little each year. I remember when you could buy a nice car for $2,700-$3,000 brand new. This same car today costs $22,000-$30,000. This is robbery.

XtorT'r · Feb 11, 2004

I think I was a baby when car prices were 2,500 - 3,000.. heh I'm old.

Wylde · Feb 11, 2004

Ron Jeremy said:
It would really be nice to see car prices go thru the floor into the basement and down into the core of the earth. I am sick and tired of seeing car prices edge upwards little by little each year. I remember when you could buy a nice car for $2,700-$3,000 brand new. This same car today costs $22,000-$30,000. This is robbery.

I agree...110% prices have gone insane...especially in Canada. Using an example only here with the new chevy SSR. In the US that vehicle is about $43k MSRP here in Canada $70k Now I know our our dollar is worth less than USD but not that much. At todays exchange rate of .75 that comes to about $57k...now where on earth did the execs at GM get a $70k figure. Worst yet...buy a SSR in the US, the warranty is void if brought accross the border. I hope Ford doesn't do that to the Mustang. If it's $23k in the US, it damn well better be about $31k-$33k in Canada and not $40 which I fear it will be. If it is...back to square 1 in looking for a new summer car. I have a family car...this car will be a toy to me. But I will almost be buying it cash, not financed much if at all.

shatner saves · Feb 11, 2004

It's not only taxes and inflation.

Consider the content available in new cars nowdays. Those 65-71 vintage mustangs didn't come with dual smart airbags, power locks, power windows, airbags, fuel injection, 6-disc cd changers, security systems, ABS, big 4 wheel disc brakes, 17" aluminum wheels, catalytic converters, 3 year-36k mile warranties, etc, etc, etc. And that's just off the top of my head. Even a current base model GT is pretty loaded compared to those cars.

I'm not saying that cars aren't overpriced, I'm just saying that when you factor all this stuff in, the numbers start to make a bit more sense.

mp67 · Feb 11, 2004

shatner saves said:
It's not only taxes and inflation.

Consider the content available in new cars nowdays. Those 65-71 vintage mustangs didn't come with dual smart airbags, power locks, power windows, airbags, fuel injection, 6-disc cd changers, security systems, ABS, big 4 wheel disc brakes, 17" aluminum wheels, catalytic converters, 3 year-36k mile warranties, etc, etc, etc. And that's just off the top of my head. Even a current base model GT is pretty loaded compared to those cars.

I'm not saying that cars aren't overpriced, I'm just saying that when you factor all this stuff in, the numbers start to make a bit more sense.

True. Also consider the average union workers salary. If a mustang cost 14-15k still like it did in 90 then salaries for the workers would have to stay at the same level as in 1990. Benefits as well. Same with all car companies. Same with all industries that make things we buy. Everyone wants to make more money so we can get ahead. If prices for everything stayed the same year after year, then how would we ever get salary increases. And as for the price of a car being 50-80% tax, that's bs. As for the tariffs on imports, thats a good thing. Every country does it, it helps protect US workers. Consider that alot of the products that we buy from overseas or being produced by workers making pennies on the dollar. If they were allowed to sell their products here without tarriffs, they could sell them dirt cheap. Sounds good to average joe consumer, untill you consider that to compete, US companies would have to pay their workers pennies on the dollar and then nobody could afford to buy anything and the whole economy would tank. Besides, companies like Toyota have set up shop over here. My Avalon was built in Kentucky by American workers with parts made by American workers. Toyota pays no tariffs and Americans have good paying jobs. And I still got a quality product.

Problem with new mustang

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