Pulley alignment issue

DanG · Sep 26, 2011

revhead347 said:
I'd take it all apart on the alternator side and see what's up. Did you install the engine? On some aftermarket heads one of the bolt holes on the passenger side cylinder heads has to be tapped a little bit to get the bolt to go in all the way.

Kurt

Yep, I installed the assembled shortblock into the car, as well as all of the accessories including this bracket. I wasn't aware of that some aftermarket heads required tapping some of the bolt holes, but this is certainly a place to start looking.

revhead347 · Sep 26, 2011

Yeah, I don't know exactly why they are like that. The hole is deep enough, as it goes all the way through to the water jacket, but it's not threaded all the way. The bolt will feel tight like it's clamping down tight, but in actuality it's just binding up because it has run out of thread. I know my Canfields had to be tapped, not sure about AFRs.

Kurt

DanG · Sep 26, 2011

revhead347 said:
Yeah, I don't know exactly why they are like that. The hole is deep enough, as it goes all the way through to the water jacket, but it's not threaded all the way. The bolt will feel tight like it's clamping down tight, but in actuality it's just binding up because it has run out of thread. I know my Canfields had to be tapped, not sure about AFRs.

Kurt

I don't suppose you know which bolt hole you had issues with? There are three;
one 13mm at the top of the bracket which sits behind a rubber hose connector that leads to a heater hose line, one larger 3/4" bolt head which is behind the tensioner, and another 13mm bolt which is to the right and below the larger 3/4" bolt.
I actually noticed the 3/4" bolt was a little loose when I pulled the tensioner, which I wasn't expecting at all...

revhead347 · Sep 27, 2011

I think it's the big bolt.

Kurt.

DanG · Sep 27, 2011

revhead347 said:
I think it's the big bolt.

Kurt.

hmm, that's interesting. The large bolt hole in the head has a type of sheathing in it. When you screw the bolt in, it goes into the sheathing which screws into the cylinder head. This sheathing isn't exactly difficult to screw outwards... I never noticed this before.

99FiveOh · Sep 27, 2011

It's probably some kind of helicoil. Maybe you could just buy some bolts that are a little shorter or cut a few threads off the end of them.

revhead347 · Sep 27, 2011

That Sheathing is a plug that is usually only used in the back of the head to block off the thermactor.

Kurt

DanG · Sep 29, 2011

I ended up marking the threads on the bolt with whiteout, where the edge of the bracket is so that I could see how far the bolt sticks out of the bracket. This also allowed me to see how deep the bolt screwed into the head. If I couldn't hand screw the bolt in as far as the whiteout mark, then I would know the bolt was sitting too shallow.
The bolt screwed in just fine, and I cannot find any issues between the head and the smog bracket.

Looks like it's time to have the bracket machined down, as I cannot find any evident issues here.

revhead347 · Sep 29, 2011

Keep looking. There is no reason the bracket would have worked on an old engine and not on the new one. Something is up. Are you measuring against only the crank pulley or other pullies as well. There is a possibility the crank pulley is out of spacing.

Kurt

DanG · Sep 29, 2011

revhead347 said:
Keep looking. There is no reason the bracket would have worked on an old engine and not on the new one. Something is up. Are you measuring against only the crank pulley or other pullies as well. There is a possibility the crank pulley is out of spacing.

Kurt

Hey Kurt,

I appreciate your follow up. I agree there shouldn't be a reason why this bracket is sitting further forward in the engine bay than it was on the old setup. The only thing I can think of, is if the aluminum casting of the AFR head is slightly larger (length wise) than the GT40X head I had on the car, but then again I would think the other head should have compensated. I didn't see anything which would have obstructed the bracket when I had it removed, and the bracket is flush against the head and very snug.

It seems like everything on that bracket is a bit further forward; smog pump pulley, tensioner/idler pulley, and alternator. All three of these align with each other well, but don't align with the crank or water pump. I will say the smog seems to be the worse.

The crank, power steering, and water pump pulleys seem to align with each other when I use a 12" flat ruler, it's just the three pulleys which reside on the smog/alternator bracket which are out of alignment with the others. From what I could measure, there's about a 3/16" of a difference between the smog to the crank. If the crank pulley were moved out any further, the belt would end up riding on the very edge of the water pump once the car is started.

I admit, this is pretty frustrating as there isn't any evident causes for what is going on. It stinks, because I can drive the car around, so as long as I don't get into boost, and then the belt rides to the back of the smog and tensioner, and then gets shredded.

What I find VERY odd, is that the shop who dynoed the car, did so with the same size belt, and the belt didn't get thrown or chewed up. It's just when I get the darn thing back, that I can't drive it normally.

revhead347 · Oct 1, 2011

That's so messed up and I've never heard of anyone having that problem. Since the alternator is essentially locked into a specific place on the bracket, it's got to be the bracket to the head. I'm frustrated too, but there is little anyone can say without being able to inspect the car oneself.

Kurt

DanG · Oct 1, 2011

revhead347 said:
That's so messed up and I've never heard of anyone having that problem. Since the alternator is essentially locked into a specific place on the bracket, it's got to be the bracket to the head. I'm frustrated too, but there is little anyone can say without being able to inspect the car oneself.

Kurt

Kurt,

I agree it is frustrating and a bit odd.
It essentially almost has to be related to the smog bracket at this point. Yesterday I went out and purchased some thin bolt nuts 1/8" in thickness, and placed them between the crank pulley and the balancer. It made the crank flush with the smog pump and tensioner. Now, when I took the car out and drove it easily, the belt jumped 1 rib off the back of the crank pulley. Which tells me that I moved the crank too far forward. I may just have to get the mating surface of the smog bracket filed down 1/8" or so.

revhead347 · Oct 1, 2011

Do you really need a smog pump? I mean I know you have a blower, I assume with that big engine you have removed the cats. Those smog pumps aren't a terribly good design, and it is possible for the mechanism to move forward in the casing. The black inlet fan on the smog pump should be almost flush with the case.

Kurt

DanG · Oct 1, 2011

revhead347 said:
Do you really need a smog pump? I mean I know you have a blower, I assume with that big engine you have removed the cats. Those smog pumps aren't a terribly good design, and it is possible for the mechanism to move forward in the casing. The black inlet fan on the smog pump should be almost flush with the case.

Kurt

I don't necessarily need the smog pump, and would throw in an eliminator kit, but, it appears anything which sits on this bracket will be too far forward, which includes the tensioner/idler pulley. So, either way I'm going to need to resolve this issue. If I were to eliminate the smog pump altogether, and reroute the belt, I would perhaps have a greater chance of belt slippage, as my supercharger and all accessories run from the same 6 rib serpentine belt.
Yep, the fan is riding flush with the actual casing, but I will double check just to verify.
I keep asking myself what else changed with this car from the time when it worked till now. New Dart block, AFR heads, and I changed the harmonic balancer to a Romac unit without a spacer, which is the incorrect one for my year car, but right balance and it has the 4 bolt pattern. So, we also had to add a spacer on the crank pulley to make it the correct thickness.
At first glance I thought the balancer was the culprit, but at this point it can't be as I shimmed it to be the same as the smog, and I saw what happened.

revhead347 · Oct 1, 2011

Ok, I'm home from work for the week now, and I remembered that I was going to find the part number for that wider pulley for the tensioner for you. Unfortunately I could not find the receipt for it, so I went digging through my parts stock in the garage and found the original box for it, which is where I had stashed the original pulley tensioner. It's a Dayco part number 89016, and it lists at Advance for $19.99 in my area. You have to put a washer behind the pulley to space it out a little bit, but it will make a huge difference in keeping your belt from popping off as it is mega wide. I noticed you are running a stock water pump pulley on your water pump. I know my Steeda underdrive water pump pulley was much wider, and gave better protection against belt slipping. Unfortunately, I went back to the stock water pump pulley because the Steeda one under drove the water pump too much, and made the car run hotter than I liked. You might also want to look into replacing that Romac balancer for a better balancer in the future. Ford SB engines should really have an elastomer balancer because it provides better harmonic protection. A good SFI Pioneer balancer will run you about $180, but it is identical to the stock balancer in length, so it will not require any spacers.

Buy Dayco No Slack Idler/Tensioner Pulley, Light Duty 89016 at Advance Auto Parts

Unfortunately I can't see the blower in any of your pics because they are all of the passenger side. I know the D1SC is mounted on the driver's side, but I didn't know it was on the same 6 rib belt which is unfortunate. I would try and eliminate the smog pump without an eliminator kit. I seriously doubt it will have any effect on belt tension. You have to reroute the belt so that it comes directly up from the bottom of the crank pulley to the altermator pulley passing the tensioner on the way. If anything, I believe it will give you more tension, because you will have a tighter wrap on the driver's side where it comes down from the water pump to the AC pulley.

Kurt

DanG · Oct 2, 2011

revhead347 said:
Ok, I'm home from work for the week now, and I remembered that I was going to find the part number for that wider pulley for the tensioner for you. Unfortunately I could not find the receipt for it, so I went digging through my parts stock in the garage and found the original box for it, which is where I had stashed the original pulley tensioner. It's a Dayco part number 89016, and it lists at Advance for $19.99 in my area. You have to put a washer behind the pulley to space it out a little bit, but it will make a huge difference in keeping your belt from popping off as it is mega wide. I noticed you are running a stock water pump pulley on your water pump. I know my Steeda underdrive water pump pulley was much wider, and gave better protection against belt slipping. Unfortunately, I went back to the stock water pump pulley because the Steeda one under drove the water pump too much, and made the car run hotter than I liked. You might also want to look into replacing that Romac balancer for a better balancer in the future. Ford SB engines should really have an elastomer balancer because it provides better harmonic protection. A good SFI Pioneer balancer will run you about $180, but it is identical to the stock balancer in length, so it will not require any spacers.

Buy Dayco No Slack Idler/Tensioner Pulley, Light Duty 89016 at Advance Auto Parts

Unfortunately I can't see the blower in any of your pics because they are all of the passenger side. I know the D1SC is mounted on the driver's side, but I didn't know it was on the same 6 rib belt which is unfortunate. I would try and eliminate the smog pump without an eliminator kit. I seriously doubt it will have any effect on belt tension. You have to reroute the belt so that it comes directly up from the bottom of the crank pulley to the altermator pulley passing the tensioner on the way. If anything, I believe it will give you more tension, because you will have a tighter wrap on the driver's side where it comes down from the water pump to the AC pulley.

Kurt

I may go ahead and purchase the Pioneer SFI 28oz balanced dampener for $200 from Summit. This way I can take the guessing game out of the crank since this is the correct balancer for my car with the built in spacer. It's frustrating as I had the crank aligned with the smog pump and tensioner ( shimmed out 1/8" ) and the belt walked to the back of the crank pulley, which tells me that I had it shimmed too far out.
On a side note, I'll attach some photo's of the motor and supercharger setup for you to take a look at.

revhead347 · Oct 2, 2011

Thanks for posting the pic of the supercharger. I can't see how removing the smog pump would have any effect on the tension for the blower. It's unfortunate they put that on the same belt. A blower really should have a dedicated drive. I think going to the Pioneer balancer is a good call. It will take all the guessing out of it, and help the longevity of the engine.

Kurt

DanG · Oct 6, 2011

I finally resolved the issue yesterday, and am able to drive the car how it should be now. I was under the car again when I got a better look at the pulley alignment, the smog bracketry, and how it mated to the head/block. Long story short, there is casting on the Dart block which evidently is not present on the stock 302, which was pushing against the back of the smog bracket, directly above the lowest smog pump bolt. When I looked down inside the motor to see the mating between the smog bracket and the head, there was an evident gap.
I wish I would have taken a picture or two, however, the smog bracket actually sat at an angle, causing the pulley to also be angled outward at the bottom. The top was mated to the head, then as the bracket descended through the motor, the gap got larger.
So, I used a drill and a metal sanding wheel to grind down the bracket in the problematic location. All in all, I took about a 1/4" off the area.

Glad this is finally done

revhead347 · Oct 7, 2011

Thanks for posting the solution. Many people here are considering a dart block. So this is good information to have.

Kurt

DanG · Oct 7, 2011

revhead347 said:
Thanks for posting the solution. Many people here are considering a dart block. So this is good information to have.

Kurt

Hi Kurt,

No problem at all. Thanks for hanging in there and giving me suggestions and recommendations.

I'll see if I can get a picture or two of the area I altered over the weekend, so people can get a better indication of what they may run into if their casting is off such as mine is.

Pulley alignment issue

DanG

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.

DanG

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.

DanG

99FiveOh

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.

DanG

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.

DanG

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.

DanG

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.

DanG

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.

DanG

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.

DanG

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.

DanG

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