Question on Heel toe, and the 2-3 upshift

66Runt · Aug 14, 2005

I've had a T-5z in my '66 for a while now, and am starting to work on heel-toe, and quicker shifting.

I'm struggling with consistency on the heel-toe and 2-3 upshift (seperate issues).

My questions are:

1). how many of you with classic Mustangs, have changed your pedal stops and readjusted the brake, clutch, and throttle contact stroke more in line like newer cars, so that you can just roll the brake with the inside of your foot and the throttle with the outside?
As it is now I have to use my instep, or heel on the brake and my toes on the gas, and I really suck at it.
I have no idea how I did it back in the 70's, and I seriously doubt I could ever get consistent with it again.

2). 2-3 upshift on a T5z. Stock shifter with a Hurst shift lever (for 83-89 Mustang), is what I have. What are you using, and are you able to make consistent quick shifts?
I can hit every gear except 3rd quick and consistently. And with the exception of my problems with Heel-toe my down shifts are pretty good too.
I'm thinking of moving the shift lever back a little closer, because I do have to move my shoulder to make the shift from second to third.

What have you done? and how does it work?

Oh yeah, I do have a console so I'm somewhat limited (as I put way to much work into the damned thing to take it back out).

Thanks,

Scott

69Rcode_Mach1 · Aug 14, 2005

I was going to recommend a short throw shifter they are spring loaded to go into 3rd it pushes it into gear for you. On my steeda I just push it forward from 2nd and it will push it into 3rd for me.

Hack · Aug 14, 2005

I plan on doing this at some point. My car is a '70 (with C4 right now), but I think many of the concepts are similar at least. I had an '85 GT parts car that was awesome for heel-toe downshifts. It worked perfectly for me. I kept the pedals, master cylinder, etc etc. I'm hoping the parts will help me / give me ideas on how to make this work when I put the T5 in. I may even end up mounting the '85 pedals into my '70. We'll see.

My car currently has manual brakes. I'm not sure whether I'm going to switch to power or not. I think power brakes may be easier to modulate with the ball of your foot while blipping the throttle.

Anyway, I don't think I can help you right now, but if you'd like me to send you any photos or measurements of the '85 pedals just let me know.

66Runt · Aug 14, 2005

Thanks for the replies!

I appreciate the info.

69RCode,
So are you basically just "pushing" the shift ball forward? Does it feel notchy at all?

Hack,
yeah, you hit the nail on the head with the '85 comment. That is what I would like to duplicate. Unless someone has a better idea, or can give me some pointers on how to be effective with the stock setup.

I'm going to be going to power disk (from non-power drum) as soon as all the parts come in, so I am looking to "fix" the whole braking package at one time. Just in case that means removing and modifying the brake pedal and/or clutch arm.

It would be great to hear from some of the guys who are doing Auto-X or opentrack/vintage racing. Maybe I'm missing something important in the ergonomics of the stock setup.

I will probably post this question in the drivers section of corner carvers, to see what they suggest as well.

Thanks again,

Scott

mustangdave · Aug 14, 2005

Mustangs Plus, I think, makes a shifter relocation kit to move the shifter toward you but that probably wouldn't work with your console. Are you sure your synchros are good?

66Runt · Aug 14, 2005

Syncro's are good

I can throw it in neutral at about 60mph with the engine at idle, push the clutch in and it goes into third very easily. No grinding of any kind. It's basically new. Only 500 miles of in-town and country driving. the real notchy feeling has gone, but it is still blocky feeling instead of more of a lazy "S".

I looked at the short throw shifters, and didn't see anything off the shelf that came back as far as the stock '83-'89 Hurst shift lever. So I was wondering what other have done, and how their shift levers felt.

I like the idea of the spring loaded shifter. So I will probably pick one up, then fab a block to move the Hurst arm to where It fits me right.

If I was building a true track car, instead of a "sports-touring car", I'd probably have gone with something like the Mustangs Plus setup.

I have to add that the T5 was the biggest bang for the buck I've gotten in years. Man, what a difference!...everywhere (including just backing it out of the garage).

DarkBuddha · Aug 14, 2005

66Runt said:
I've had a T-5z in my '66 for a while now, and am starting to work on heel-toe, and quicker shifting.

I'm struggling with consistency on the heel-toe and 2-3 upshift (seperate issues).

I originally mis-read your post thinking you were trying to heel-toe the upshifts, which won't do you any favors as you well know.

As for the heel-toe issue and pedal placement: You might look into TCP's pedal setups which have better proportioned pedals for this kind of work. Also, the term "heel & toe" is pretty deceptive since it usually really means "ball and side" in sportscars and race cars. Now that said, in good old fashioned production sedans and American muscle, and even imports, it can actually mean "heel & toe" literally. It takes a bit of flexibility and small feet, but it is best done by modulating the brake with the ball of your foot (where you really need more control in this circumstance anyway), and jabbing the throttle with your heel to match revs. I used this technique in a Corolla I used to have and it worked, but I've grown (uh, I mean I've gotten fat) and I don't have the same sort of flexibility and mobility for it anymore.

As for the upshifts, I wonder if you've got a lousy syncro getting in your way. If its not really bad, it will only cause problems when you're trying to shift quickly... typical syncro symptom.

Maybe try that "toe & heel" technique and see if it offers any benefits. Good luck.

66Runt · Aug 15, 2005

Figured out the 2-3 shift deal

Wished I would have read DarkBuddha's reply before I went for a spin this evening though.

The 2-3 shift issue was me trying to hold the whole shift ball instead of using the pad of my hand on the backside. Much quicker shifts now, and very consistent. I think I'm still going for a spring loaded shifter though, as it's still not as fast as my 510 was.

DarkBuddha,
thanks for the heel-toe idea. I've been doing it exactly backwards from that, and have to put my foot almost completely sideways. I'll try that next weekend.

I've got my dog riding with me as my bench mark. When I can consistently down shift under agressive (for drum brake) braking, with out him falling off the seat, then we will both be happy

Yeah, if I don't get this down pretty quick I'll tear the whole darned pedal assembly out and build a new one that allows me to use ball-and-side movement. That is what I am used to and am really consistent with. Dog never fell off the seat in that car!

Anybody know where I can get a crash helmet for a German Sheppard?

Thanks for the help,

Scott

69Rcode_Mach1 · Aug 15, 2005

66Runt said:
I appreciate the info.

69RCode,
So are you basically just "pushing" the shift ball forward? Does it feel notchy at all?

I don't really know what people consider notchy. The shifter feels fine for me I don't really know. However all this gear banging has taken place at a stop the car is in the process of being started for the first time. So I don't know what it feels like when in gear.

DarkBuddha · Aug 15, 2005

66Runt said:
DarkBuddha,
thanks for the heel-toe idea. I've been doing it exactly backwards from that, and have to put my foot almost completely sideways. I'll try that next weekend.

If you've got a week to prepare, try doing some exercises to get the kind of flexibility you'll need for it... if you can squat down while keeping your feet flat on the floor then you're already there. Otherwise, start stretching.

Oh, and here was the basic of my technique:

1. Apply brake with ball of foot
2. Apply clutch and pivot heel over throttle
3. start downshift, goose throttle with heel, finish downshift
4. release clutch
5. repeat as needed.

The whole thing is like 3 seconds or less total from the time you hit the brake to the time you let out the clutch, and smootheness is key. Doing it faster but a bit jerky isn't as good doing it slighly slower but much smoother.

And one last thing... I know it's completely unsolicited, but I'll offer a bit of practice advice anyway since one of my primary persuits in life is fundamentally based in absurd amounts of practice time. As you know, practice makes perfect, but did you know that slow practice teaches more than fast practice? I learned that especially from being a classically trained cellist, and it really works when you really want to learn something correctly. Practice lots and lots at a very slow pace, then increase the pace. If it becomes tough, go back to very slow practice again for a good while, then try increasing your pace. You'll know you've done enough slow practice when you can continue to linearly increase the pace of it without running into problems or stumbling.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

66Runt · Aug 15, 2005

Thanks for the great advice

I'm with you 100% on starting off slow. Seem's that is the key to all technical disciplines. As they say it teaches good form.

Thanks again,

Scott

Question on Heel toe, and the 2-3 upshift

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