Rack & Pinion Question

Mustang67 · Jan 1, 2006

I have installed a Rack & Pinion on my 67 Mustang from Speed Direct. I took the car to the aligment shop and was told the front end is to loose. I was told the spindles wobble because of the way the inner Tie Rods are connected to the bracket then to the Rack. The bracket causes a propeller effect. I have noticed that RRS (Rack&Pinion) has tried to correct the issue by using a bar connected to the bracket. The bracket slides along a bar that is connected to the Rack. Does anyone have an idea how to fix the Speed Direct Rack? I guess I could fab a bracket and rod like the RRs rack uses. Comments?

jerry S · Jan 2, 2006

Mustang67 said:
I have installed a Rack & Pinion on my 67 Mustang from Speed Direct. I took the car to the aligment shop and was told the front end is to loose. I was told the spindles wobble because of the way the inner Tie Rods are connected to the bracket then to the Rack. The bracket causes a propeller effect. I have noticed that RRS (Rack&Pinion) has tried to correct the issue by using a bar connected to the bracket. The bracket slides along a bar that is connected to the Rack. Does anyone have an idea how to fix the Speed Direct Rack? I guess I could fab a bracket and rod like the RRs rack uses. Comments?

Your best bet is to call the MFG and explain the problem and see what they have to say. Every mfg I have ever purchased from (Holley, Global West, TCP, Edelbrock, and more) has been more than helpful to me with follow up issues/questions/problems.

67efivert · Jan 2, 2006

that link dont work have u got a good link im intrested in seeing what theve done havent that setup yet

Mustang67 · Jan 2, 2006

I have updated the link to Speed Direct.

70vert · Jan 2, 2006

I have Steeroids (the Speed Direct rack), "loose"??

Mustang67 said:
I took the car to the aligment shop and was told the front end is to loose. I was told the spindles wobble because of the way the inner Tie Rods are connected to the bracket then to the Rack. The bracket causes a propeller effect. I have noticed that RRS (Rack&Pinion) has tried to correct the issue by using a bar connected to the bracket. The bracket slides along a bar that is connected to the Rack. Does anyone have an idea how to fix the Speed Direct Rack? I guess I could fab a bracket and rod like the RRs rack uses. Comments?

What exactly do they mean by "loose", just the flex in the rack? My front end feels tight. See my list of mods, though, in my sig. I would take it to another shop and get a second opinion. I had my rack installed by a shop and they sent it to an alignment shop with no reports of any problems. I can't claim any alignment issues, bumpsteer issues, only that at first the rack would not return to center after a turn, presumably due to sticking in the rack before it was broken in. (TCP claims that their racks need to be broken in as well)

I will say that that bracket can flex, certainly, but I only really feel it when turning the wheel at a dead stop. (I can even SEE it then if someone else is turning the wheel) An addition of an RRS-style bracket would not be a bad idea - a member named Hakan (I believe) also has a slider design.

Get used to that reduced turning radius . . . smooth rack, but I have to schedule u-turns on my palm pilot.

Psydwaze · Jan 2, 2006

70vert said:
What exactly do they mean by "loose", just the flex in the rack?... I will say that that bracket can flex, certainly, but I only really feel it when turning the wheel at a dead stop. (I can even SEE it then if someone else is turning the wheel)

Not to thread jack but I found your statements to be very alarming. I've always pointed out the broadly spread mounting points of the TCP centerlink as an improvement over other rack conversions but your examples couldn't have stated it better. If you guys are seeing things bend/flex in your steering system when at a stand still, think for a minute what happens when you hit something in the road at 60 mph.

Speed Direct

RRS

TCP

70vert · Jan 2, 2006

tires aren't rolling at standstill=lots of force

Psydwaze said:
If you guys are seeing things bend/flex in your steering system when at a stand still, think for a minute what happens when you hit something in the road at 60 mph.

psydwaze, yeah, there are bump steer issues at high speeds but if that much force were being directed back into the rack I would feel that bump steer through the wheel.

Take a Manual steer car out. Try to turn the wheel in the parking lot. You will feel a lot of resistance (from your non-rolling tires) and a little flex before your steering wheel input makes the wheels move. That's more than anything you're likely to feel at speed, unless you hit a curb or a monstrous pothole. Hopefully you roll over the pothole and the steering returns back to straight soon after that.

Anyone else have a better explanation?

mdjay · Jan 2, 2006

Mustang67, you should have done some more homework.

I've stated in several threads about the racks that mount with vertical brackets will flex. I also stated they are "flat out unsafe."

You all need to go with either the ones with a craddle or the TCP one that mounts directly to the frame and lower control arms.

69 Rustang · Jan 2, 2006

If you can feel it flex--that's too scary of an install for me. What one's come with a cradle. For those that don't I would think you could create a cradle with some time and enginuity, but I am not ready to risk my or my family's lives on that. There are lots of issues and things to consider with this. Has anyone summed it up in a matrix of sorts? I.E.
Cost Ease of Install Bumpsteer issues Flex Completeness of kit
Brand 1
Brand 2
etc.

bnickel · Jan 2, 2006

69 Rustang said:
If you can feel it flex--that's too scary of an install for me. What one's come with a cradle. For those that don't I would think you could create a cradle with some time and enginuity, but I am not ready to risk my or my family's lives on that. There are lots of issues and things to consider with this. Has anyone summed it up in a matrix of sorts? I.E.
Cost Ease of Install Bumpsteer issues Flex Completeness of kit
Brand 1
Brand 2
etc.

the only power rack that uses a cradle is the www.randallsrack.com unit. he also modifies the rack itself to move the tie rod mounting points to the rear of the rack instead of in front like the steeroids and RRS racks, like they way the tcp rack is. his does still have the mounting points closer together like the RRS and speed direct units though.

70vert · Jan 2, 2006

There seem to be 2 issues:

1. Vertical frame mounts: I can see Mdjay's point on this. When I had the conversion done, Steeroids was new and not too much was known about it. The cost was appealing and the power steering as well. I think reinforcing the frame mount points might be a solution to look at down the road, but I check the mount points/brackets regularly and all is well so far.

For someone looking to do it right the first time, I wouldn't recommend Steeroids at this point w/o a redesign, but I'm trying to help a guy out in the same situation as me. I assume he doesn't have the money to just run out and buy a new TCP rack, that's why he chose Steeroids.

2. TCP "broadly spread mount points" on the centerlink vs. the Steeroids closely mounted bolts. Here's my install:

http://homepage.mac.com/jbauder/steeroidsuniqueweb/steeroidsuniqueweb.html

and here is a pic pre-install of the mount points and the 2 bolts. It seems like the frame mounts could be welded to the frame and/or reinforced and "boxed in" to solve his problem. Likewise, the center bracket could be "boxed in" to make it stronger.

I still don't totally understand the "widely spaced mount points" thing. Are you saying that the tie rods impart a flex to the bracket that wider mount points could resist better? Probably true, maybe "boxing in" the bracket would solve that.

Like I was saying, I'd recommend the TCP rack over this one to anyone - I don't want "the blood of the innocent" on my hands either, but we're both in the same boat and we both kind of have to make this one work. Unless somebody wants to start a "Mustang67 and 70vert TCP Upgrade Fund"

seriously, though, mistake made, lesson learned, nobody else should buy Steeroids without a major redesign, what suggestions might you have to fix these issues that don't cost over $1k?

Edbert · Jan 2, 2006

70vert said:
I still don't totally understand the "widely spaced mount points" thing. Are you saying that the tie rods impart a flex to the bracket that wider mount points could resist better? Probably true, maybe "boxing in" the bracket would solve that.

I don't claim to speak for anyone else but here's my understanding...pardon the layman's terms...LOL

It comes down to the distance between the tie-rod mounting hole (outer) and the bolt that connects to the unit (inner) hole. If these two points are close together they have less flex. So by moving the two inner holes further apart the gap is closed and the rigidity of the "bar" itself is improved.

Psydwaze · Jan 2, 2006

Edbert said:
... by moving the two inner holes further apart the gap is closed and the rigidity of the "bar" itself is improved.

This is correct. The wider the centerlink mounts the less leverage the tie rods have in directing off axis forces. Just like standing with your feet spread for a wide stance, you're more stable.

Psydwaze · Jan 2, 2006

70vert said:
psydwaze, yeah, there are bump steer issues at high speeds but if that much force were being directed back into the rack I would feel that bump steer through the wheel.
...
Try to turn the wheel in the parking lot. You will feel a lot of resistance (from your non-rolling tires) and a little flex before your steering wheel input makes the wheels move. That's more than anything you're likely to feel at speed, unless you hit a curb or a monstrous pothole. Hopefully you roll over the pothole and the steering returns back to straight soon after that.

Bump steer is really a seperate issue. I understand that the resistance is reduced when rolling but its more a lack of precision in the steering when you may need it most, whether its high-performance driving, panic situation or as you stated, "unless you hit a curb or a monstrous pothole".

I also associate bending with fatigue unless the part and material is specifically designed for it. Mild steel will only bend so far before it yields and holds its new position. This is good in instances of heavy impacts when parts bend instead of break but a steel part that displays visible deflection during normal use, even if it is stationary, should really be reinforced.

Z06killinSBF · Jan 2, 2006

SELL IT AND GET THE RANDALLS RACK!!!!! I should have pics of mine soon. On my dad's camera back home.

70vert · Jan 2, 2006

then there's the "blood of the innocent" issue

Z06killinSBF said:
SELL IT AND GET THE RANDALLS RACK!!!!! I should have pics of mine soon. On my dad's camera back home.

well, if I sell it to some unsuspecting guy and then he crashes, how would I feel then?

I misspoke when I said "I can see it flexing" - I wasn't actually under the car looking up at the rack, what I meant was that as my g/f was turning the wheel I could see that there was a slight lag between steering input and tire movement at certain points during lock-to-lock. Part of that was the rack sticking, not broken in, as it turns easier now, even with wider 245 tires.(originals were 205) It could even have been the ground we were on, it wasn't even - tire gets caught in chunky asphalt, etc.

I will say this (not to sound like I'm backpedaling) - I can turn the steering wheel relatively easily and positively w/o the car on, hence no p/s, without feeling significant flex. I think the sticking of the rack at first was significant.

It would be interesting to watch that rack while at a dead stop under the car, though. Need new girlfriend, that one is gone.

Thanks for the explanation of the "wider spread on the bolts", that's what I figured. I could have that bracket boxed in with little holes for the bolt heads, perhaps.

69 Rustang · Jan 2, 2006

Without seeing it in person, my first inclination would be to see if there is a way to box the center link to make it stronger and less susceptible to flex. The second mod would be to connect the two frame mounts to form a solid crossmember. But what I can't see is --could connecting the frame mounts be done without a negative impact on ground clearance or other moving parts? --would boxing the center link or beefing it up cause interference with the tie rods? --etc Hopefully it can be fixed to your satisfaction and comfort level (safety).

As nobody jumped up and said they built a matrix of the brands and the issues, I started to make my own. I will post it (and all its shortcomings) for others to see and provide input tomorrow.

jerry S · Jan 3, 2006

blood of the innocent

70vert said:
well, if I sell it to some unsuspecting guy and then he crashes, how would I feel then?

just sell it "as is" with a disclaimer that use of this product can cause serious injury or death and you will have done as much as the tobbacco companies ever did.

Z06killinSBF · Jan 3, 2006

69 Rustang said:
Without seeing it in person, my first inclination would be to see if there is a way to box the center link to make it stronger and less susceptible to flex. The second mod would be to connect the two frame mounts to form a solid crossmember. But what I can't see is --could connecting the frame mounts be done without a negative impact on ground clearance or other moving parts? --would boxing the center link or beefing it up cause interference with the tie rods? --etc Hopefully it can be fixed to your satisfaction and comfort level (safety).

As nobody jumped up and said they built a matrix of the brands and the issues, I started to make my own. I will post it (and all its shortcomings) for others to see and provide input tomorrow.

The Randall Rack has some what of a modified "C" channel as it's cross member. It sits exactly level with my oil pan (Milidon 8qt Road Race) and has never proven to be a ground clearance problem. It is by far the beefiest set up I've seen to date. My buddy has the TCP on his 68' I cant see how it doesnt break. The RR uses a center mount for the steering control and has late model Mustang inner tie rods. There must be about 2-3" between the tie rods and cross member.

mdjay · Jan 3, 2006

bnickel said:
the only power rack that uses a cradle is the www.randallsrack.com unit. he also modifies the rack itself to move the tie rod mounting points to the rear of the rack instead of in front like the steeroids and RRS racks, like they way the tcp rack is. his does still have the mounting points closer together like the RRS and speed direct units though.

The Flaming River rack also uses the craddle. However with the older rear steer units, we haven't had the best feedback with installs. They recently went to a front steer set-up that is suppose to be more friendly to clearance for headers. Haven't heard much feedback from these new units though. I guess no news is good news.

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