Really Really need help with car not starting

Cobra ssc · Jun 22, 2010

BTW, if your timing is off enough, it will also back fire... Need that pointer...

red66er · Jun 22, 2010

Cobra SSC,

That really blows, I could have really used some hands on time with someone who has experience.

Cobra ssc · Jun 22, 2010

red66er said:
NY-67stang,
Your saying to actually put a piece of wire in the spark plug hole?

My only problem here is that I can't figure out how to turn this over by hand since it is already installed. There doesn't look like any place to put a wrench or socket.

I don't have a compression tester, so I'm not sure what my compression tests out at.

Turn it with a ratchet and socket clockwise attached to the balancer bolt... You can use a pinky to find TDC if you are careful... You will still probably be a couple of degrees off, but that can get you close...

red66er · Jun 22, 2010

Here's a question, if the voltage regulator is unhooked, this would be the metal type relay on the front of the car near the radiator, would that cause the car not to start.

I realized that the wiring harness was not plugged into it but even with that doesn't that just deal with the alternator?

red66er · Jun 22, 2010

You know, I don't have a lot keyway on the balancer any more. I turned it quite a bit out of the car and some of the keyway broke off near the dampner. Where can I get something that would be held on by the dampner bolt?

Cobra ssc · Jun 22, 2010

red66er said:
You know, I don't have a lot keyway on the balancer any more. I turned it quite a bit out of the car and some of the keyway broke off near the dampner. Where can I get something that would be held on by the dampner bolt?

Not sure what you mean there, but the dampner bolt should be around a 15/16 head on it and in the center of the dampner, of course. If you are talking about the key that is set in a groove in the crank and is used to keep the balancer in the correct position is broke off, then don't bother trying to start the engine without it.

red66er · Jun 22, 2010

Yeah, that's the little piece I was talking about. But it was only a tiny piece. The dampner is solid on the crank. Thanks for the info on the bolt.

Did you see my note about the voltage regulator?

red66er · Jun 22, 2010

I guess I still don't think we've really solved this problem have we?

Even though I don't have timing pointer could I really be that far off to where the car would backfire through the carb and not start?

Cobra ssc · Jun 22, 2010

red66er said:
I guess I still don't think we've really solved this problem have we?

Even though I don't have timing pointer could I really be that far off to where the car would backfire through the carb and not start?

Yes, it could be that far off...

Not sure about the regulator you talk about, I don't have that regulator anymore. My car is updated with EFI and a new wiring harness...

pyroman · Jun 22, 2010

Have you tried rotating the rotor 180* yet? I was a 180* off on my first attempt to start the car and had all sorts of weird backfiring issues. Never could keep it running. Once I got the timing down it ran well.

As far as the voltage regulator goes I would think you could get the car started without it. You'd run into issues only when the car has run for awhile and the battery is not charging.

red66er · Jun 22, 2010

Ahh, good old EFI!! Yeah, the old way used a voltage regulator that was screwed to the front of the car. It had four wires running into it. I'm not exactly sure of it's function but I guess I can google it.

How close do you have to be on the timing for the car to fire up? I've read through the service manual and I am lead to believe that you need to be at least + or - 2 degrees.

So just finding TDC is not enough to get me to the point of starting the car it sounds like unless I get really lucky.

One thing though, by setting the distributor at TDC can't I move the housing around, advance or retard, as I crank to find the right timing? Does that question make sense?

red66er · Jun 22, 2010

Thanks Pyroman.

I thought I tried turning the distributor 180 but maybe I did that wrong.

I asked this earlier, but if I have found TDC or very close could the timing still be 180 degrees off?

other_shoe · Jun 23, 2010

red66er said:
I asked this earlier, but if I have found TDC or very close could the timing still be 180 degrees off?

Well, I think most of us who have been 180 off believed we had found TDC. It happens.

red66er · Jun 23, 2010

Yea, I think now that I have had time to think about it when I think that I was testing it at 180 degrees I have a feeling that I didn't really do that right either.

My understanding of this is that you find TDC then instead of setting the distributor rotor to number one cylinder along with the corresponding lobe on the distributor cap. You instead rotate that rotor 180 degrees. When you put the distributor cap back on, the lobe on the cap that the rotor points to should still be used as the number one cylinder and then you put the plugs on the cap according to the regular firing order.

I'm not really stupid, but sometimes I over think the simplest things and make them harder than they should be.

I will try this today and let ya'll know what happens. I know there is a lot of experience in this forum that is telling me I'm 180 off. So odds are I probably am.

KMatch · Jun 23, 2010

Want a backwards way of finding TDC without a pointer? Roll engine over until the exhaust valve closes. The point between the exhaust valve closing and intake opening is TDC Exhaust stroke. Point your rotor 180 degrees AWAY from #1 between the exhaust closing and intake opening and you'll be close enough to fire it up provided the firing order is right.

mudbilly · Jun 23, 2010

are you sure that the plug wire are on corrrectly AND going to the correct cylinder ????

at TDC with the rotor firing #1 plug, crank the engine and make sure that the wires are going to the correct cylinder.

289 firing order
1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8

4 | 8
3 | 7
2 | 6
1 | 5
Front of Engine

i hijacked this from an old thread that might be worth visiting...

289 firing order - MustangForums.com

69gmachine · Jun 23, 2010

You may already know this, but remember that the rotor turns counter clockwise, so the plug wires on the cap need to be arranged counter clockwise as well. Just one more thing to check.

When you need to turn the engine over by hand, make sure the car's in nuetral, remove all the spark plugs. If you can't get a 15/16 socket on the crank bolt, remove the lower crank pulley. Then you can install a couple of 2" x 3/8" bolts that you can use to get leverage on with a breakover bar or large screw driver. Yes, it's a lot of work, but maybe worth it to get it set up right once and for all.

You can easily see when the #1 piston is at TDC with a flashlight. It will dwell there for a couple of degrees of rotation, so if you see it start to go down the bore, back up a little bit. If your balancer is marked for the early timing pointer then the 0 will be around 1 O'clock if you're on the compression stroke, (otherwise the 0 will be on the bottom of the balancer around 7 O'clock). If the balancer is not marked for the early engine, the 0 will be around 10 O'clock.

The engine will start within about a 20 degree variance of rotor position, but it will only run reasonably well within about 10 to 12 degrees.

red66er · Jun 23, 2010

All right, here's where I'm at. Tried the 180 degree thing and it backfired right away like a mother******. I was deaf for about 10 minutes. So went back to doing TDC and made sure the valves were down and the piston was up on the number one.

Same results.

Checked the coil to make sure it wasn't fried and it came out all right on a voltmeter.

What I'm really starting to wonder is if using the pertronix distributor and coil through off the firing, or is that a stretch. I did read an earlier article by a guy, not a mustang guy, about when he put in a pertronix distributor and it through his timing off about 20 degrees.

Does it still sound like a timing thing? Does anyone have a picture where the timing indicator is located on a 66 mustang coupe?

tx65coupe · Jun 24, 2010

EP429 said:
Sounds right on. Which part of Austin are you located in SSC? I'm just north in Cedar Park

Hey, I just noticed that your located near Cedar Park. Do you know about the Saturday night cruise in / car show at 1431 and 183a behind the Carl Jr's and Chick Fil A? It goes on every Saturday from about 7-10 pm or so. Some people come a little earlier and some stay until around 11. I am usually there. Its a mix of classics and late model cars. The cool thing is there is very little import stuff. Sorry for the thread hijack.

Cobra ssc · Jun 24, 2010

red66er said:
Yea, I think now that I have had time to think about it when I think that I was testing it at 180 degrees I have a feeling that I didn't really do that right either.

My understanding of this is that you find TDC then instead of setting the distributor rotor to number one cylinder along with the corresponding lobe on the distributor cap. You instead rotate that rotor 180 degrees. When you put the distributor cap back on, the lobe on the cap that the rotor points to should still be used as the number one cylinder and then you put the plugs on the cap according to the regular firing order.

Just to clear things up. the plug wires are always in their correct location. Do not move around the plug wires.

If the car is backfiring, then you have the 3 essentials you need to get it running...air, fuel, and spark. Now you just have to get it at the correct timing.

Really Really need help with car not starting

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