rear suspension debate..

rbohm · May 10, 2010

the first thing you need to do is sit down and decide what you want from your car. do you want a daily driver? a toy? a combination of both? a race car? for instance if you are going for a toy that can run hard at the track, i would recommend one thing. if you want a daily driver that can also run hard at the track i would give you a different set up.

for my mustang, when i get to the rear suspension, right now i am probably going with stiffer leaf springs, a torque arm, and i will float the axle housing to prevent suspension binding, and use a set of KYB gas adjust shocks. this is because my mustang will be a back up driver/toy so it doesnt have to ride like my olds or my falcon.

firemansam · May 11, 2010

5280/4~ thanks for the explaination, you said you could fab the true 3 link, i can see the lower two links and all that but the top link i havent found anyone who does one like you are saying to theorize about how i would do it and cant really climb under my car over here and look around... right now i am thinking about copying the G bar type from TCP... but it looks like a lot going on and a lot to figure... 3 link sounds simpler...

rbohm~ this car will be a little bit of everything, technically it will be a semi daily driver (about 3 to 4 days a week) but when i do cut it loose on the track i want the rear to be able to keep up with the enhanced front and not have a problem layin down the power that will be comin... and likely i will run the leafs for a while until i can get everything fabed up since i really miss driving this car...

5280/4 · May 11, 2010

here is a picture of my rear suspension. This is my axle side 3rd link mount. I have not done the chassis side yet.

here are some links of the front suspensions I have designed.

http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/786029-new-custom-suspension.html
http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/803440-another-coilover-bryce.html

Wicked65 · May 11, 2010

I dont want to get into it again. But i can not disagree more with 2+2 about trac masters. He feels very strongly about them, i feel even stronger against them. There is a lot of knowledge that i totally agree with him on. But that, we are not even on the same book.. Just my 2 cents. You want more, there was a thread on cal-trac's or somthing like that, you will find searching. Another option is a setup from Total control products. They make some really cool parts. just bring your credit card..

But like someone said above. Really figure out what you want to do with the car. Me for example, i want decent street manners, but i care more about 1/4 mile times. So what ever sacrafice that takes was fine with me. Eventually ill have a low 9 second 65 that will still be on the street. But thats what i want, so i can live with whatever it takes.

But i also have a 400+ rwhp 2005 Gt that is my daily driver, so it really doesnt matter about corners with the 65.

2+2GT · May 11, 2010

Well see, there is a difference. I have no interest in drag racing. Doesn't even move the needle, so to speak. Road racing, maybe, and performance street driving, certainly. That's bound to create a very different point of view.

"Right" and "wrong" don't even come into it.

rbohm · May 11, 2010

firemansam said:
rbohm~ this car will be a little bit of everything, technically it will be a semi daily driver (about 3 to 4 days a week) but when i do cut it loose on the track i want the rear to be able to keep up with the enhanced front and not have a problem layin down the power that will be comin... and likely i will run the leafs for a while until i can get everything fabed up since i really miss driving this car...

for what you want, i think you will be happy with the leaf springs, a floating axle housing and a torque arm. the torque arm will plant the rear tires hard when you nail the throttle, and you wont have to worry about spring wrap because the torque arm and the floating housing will stop that. you also dont have to worry about pinion angle changes again because the torque arm stops that as well.

blown65 · May 11, 2010

Wicked65 said:
I dont want to get into it again. But i can not disagree more with 2+2 about trac masters. He feels very strongly about them, i feel even stronger against them. There is a lot of knowledge that i totally agree with him on. But that, we are not even on the same book.. Just my 2 cents. You want more, there was a thread on cal-trac's or somthing like that, you will find searching. Another option is a setup from Total control products. They make some really cool parts. just bring your credit card..

But like someone said above. Really figure out what you want to do with the car. Me for example, i want decent street manners, but i care more about 1/4 mile times. So what ever sacrafice that takes was fine with me. Eventually ill have a low 9 second 65 that will still be on the street. But thats what i want, so i can live with whatever it takes.

But i also have a 400+ rwhp 2005 Gt that is my daily driver, so it really doesnt matter about corners with the 65.

Kinda the same boat. Our Shelby has the Traction masters, and about all they are good for is eliminating wheel hop. For transfer of power they suck. Definitely the cheap way to go. My 65 will hookup on the street 100X better than the Shelby will. Traction master give 0 separation on the rear of the car, something you desperately need for traction. It hooks up great on slicks, but put a set of drag radials on it and its not happening.

Hell, my slapper bars worked better than traction masters.

firemansam · May 12, 2010

thanks for the continued information guys!

rbohm~ if that set up is so versatile and will easily handle the 500+ HP that will be comin that way what are the advantages of the 3 link and such? and who would they be more geared toward? i understand they are extremely tunable but outside of that how are they any better than the leafs with the torque arm? also i am not sure i am understanding what you mean by floating housing... any pictures of such a setup or a little more clarification? this is my first adveture with rear suspension and i am a little behind on the nomenclature and variations.... thanks for helpin its not just for this project i am askin cause i want as much knowledge as i can get!

rbohm · May 12, 2010

the three link suspension allows for maximum flexibility, and minimum binding. if you look closely at 5280/4's rear suspension pics, you will see the axle housing floating mounts. these allow you to use a torque arm, and still eliminate suspension binding by allow the rear axle housing to move forward and back, and rotate on the leaf springs. here is a picture of the mounts in question;

Competition Engineering C2030 - Competition Engineering Floating Housing Mounts - Overview - SummitRacing.com

the beauty half of this set up is that you dont need the added weight and complexity of a panhard bar or watts link to locate the rear axle, the leaf springs do that. if you choose the three link suspension you will need to use a panhard bar.

firemansam · May 12, 2010

so the torque are is like the one in the RRS kit, that runs along side the drive shaft a good ways right?

5280/4 · May 12, 2010

rbohm said:
the three link suspension allows for maximum flexibility, and minimum binding. if you look closely at 5280/4's rear suspension pics, you will see the axle housing floating mounts. these allow you to use a torque arm, and still eliminate suspension binding by allow the rear axle housing to move forward and back, and rotate on the leaf springs. here is a picture of the mounts in question;

Competition Engineering C2030 - Competition Engineering Floating Housing Mounts - Overview - SummitRacing.com

the beauty half of this set up is that you dont need the added weight and complexity of a panhard bar or watts link to locate the rear axle, the leaf springs do that. if you choose the three link suspension you will need to use a panhard bar.

Actually mine is not a floating mount. Those are clamp on leaf pads.

5280/4 · May 12, 2010

firemansam said:
so the torque are is like the one in the RRS kit, that runs along side the drive shaft a good ways right?

Yes the torque arm is like RRS. Torque arms are great for road racing but they lack the required anitsquat for drag racing.

An adjustable 3-link is easier to fabricate and a more universal suspension.

firemansam · May 12, 2010

what is the difference between a panhard bar and a rear sway bar? the TCP kit has a sway bar on it... do they do the same thing or how does that work?

dodgestang · May 12, 2010

rbohm said:
you dont need the added weight and complexity of a panhard bar or watts link to locate the rear axle, the leaf springs do that.

Maybe I am missing something in what you are trying to say; even a leaf spring setup with dul-alum bushing will never be as effective in keeping the rear centered on turns than a watts or a pan-hard.

I ran a Watts for years with my 5 leaf rear setup prior to upgrading to a 3 link that worked with my watts.

firemansam · May 12, 2010

ok whats a watts? sorry i am so ignorant on these parts! i have ordered a few books to help but it takes forever to get stuff over here

5280/4 · May 12, 2010

firemansam said:
what is the difference between a panhard bar and a rear sway bar? the TCP kit has a sway bar on it... do they do the same thing or how does that work?

Panhard keeps the rear end centered in the chassis. The watts link does this as well. A watts is a bit more effective and about 5 times more complicated to package.

A sway bar trasfers load from one side to the other during a corner and prevents body roll. A sway bar can also be used to cancel driveline torque during accelration and for drag racing can be used to keep the car launch straight.

firemansam · May 12, 2010

awesome thanks 5280/4! i love complicated! just ask all the girls i have dated! haha

5280/4 · May 12, 2010

dodgestang said:
Maybe I am missing something in what you are trying to say; even a leaf spring setup with dul-alum bushing will never be as effective in keeping the rear centered on turns than a watts or a pan-hard.

I ran a Watts for years with my 5 leaf rear setup prior to upgrading to a 3 link that worked with my watts.

I think he was saying for the 80% of driving conditions a leaf setup without panhard or watts will be effective in keeping the rearend centered. However to get the last 20% of your suspension and really push the car to the limits on a track with r-compound tires you will need a lateral locating device.

But then you really need to step up to a 3-link to get the last 10% left in the car when at that limit. With double (or some 4 way low speed and high speed) adjustable shocks and a tunable sway bar a chassis mounted watts link with adjustable roll center.

Then your front suspension will need to be update. Stock control arms are going to be the limiting factor. So you will need roller bearings for control arm attachments and roller spring perch, simliar shocks as the back an adjustable sway bar. What else did I miss. Chassis stiffening, wide tires, cage, race seats and harness, a motor that can keep up with the suspension upgrades.

umm... Okay I am done.

firemansam · May 12, 2010

the upgraded suspension is coming along with chassis stiffening, the motor and roll cage as well... guess i just have to decide what percentage i wanna get outta the car then...

rbohm · May 12, 2010

dodgestang said:
Maybe I am missing something in what you are trying to say; even a leaf spring setup with dul-alum bushing will never be as effective in keeping the rear centered on turns than a watts or a pan-hard.

I ran a Watts for years with my 5 leaf rear setup prior to upgrading to a 3 link that worked with my watts.

actually what i am saying is that a leaf spring does an excellent job of locating the rear axle side to side, which means if you use a torque arm with axle housing floating brackets on leaf springs, you dont need a panhard bar or a watts link.

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