Rediculously Giant Small Block (460 c.i.)

[65ShelbyClone]

I dont know about actual parts, just that vehicles '76 an prior dont need any smog checks or inspections. However, it is technically illegal to alter the factory smog equipment in ANY way, despite the fact that nobody can really bust you for it. Arnold sided with the greenies last year and signed legislation that stopped the 30 year rolling exemption and just set it permanently at 1976. Unecessary, IMO. How many 30 year old cars do you actually see on the road anyway?

It used to be 1965 and earlier

 

[180 Out]

Thanks to all for all the great links and info, and also for not flaming this pore dumm egnorant nubie for asking the questions.

I have always intended someday to build a homebrew turbo for a classic muscle car. I've known about the turbo's advantages since the Porsche 917's wiped out the 7-8 liter bb Chevys in Cam Am series in '72. (Actually, most the '60's Indy cars were turbos too.) A turbo 5.0 might actually be the next engine I build, a couple years from now. But it's real hard to say that an aluminum 427 Dart or an iron block 460 World, NA with CHI 3V heads, would be inadequate for a '65 fb. It really depends on my energy levels when the time comes.

About emissions regs, the federal Clean Air Act's default position is that no emissions-related part may be swapped out, unless the replacement part has a Cal. Air Resources Bd. ("CARB") exemption. That's the law I refer to when I say that tampering is illegal in all 50 states. As of today the EPA does not monitor compliance. Some states, most importantly California, do. California is most important not just because it's the most populous but also because it federal law gives all the other states the choice either to stick with EPA regs or go "me too" with California regs. I believe that New York and Massachusetts, and a couple others, have gone with "me too."

California's present system is that, every two years at registration time, you have to go to any one of thousands of private garages licensed as Smog Check stations and pass a visual inspection -- no tampering -- and a sniffer test for unburnt hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO), and oxides of nitrogen (NOx). Your car must pass the standards applicable to the model year of its manufacture. Cars five model years old or newer are exempt. Cars from the 1975 model year (not 1976) and older are exempt.

I don't know what are the rules for pre-'76's coming in from other states, but I expect they get a pass.

The problem is, that this scheme is always in flux, depending on which way the wind is blowing in any given year. There has been a legislative attack on the exemption for oldies every year since it was enacted in 1998. All attacks had been turned back until last year, when the Legislature repealed a "rolling exemption" feature and the Governator signed it. That was before the Gov had been turned into the political girly-man he is now. So Gov. Ahnoldt is now and always has been highly likely to sign whatever tree-hugging crap comes across his desk, in an effort to grab moderate voters for his reelection campaign in 11/06.

Oooh, getting a little ranty there. The moral to the story is, exemption or no exemption, don't throw away those smog parts! And happy turbo'd or stroked New Year to all, whichever you prefer!

 

[10secgoal]

I have this sneaking suspicion, too, that it's another myth of the turbo option, that it's cheaper than big cube NA.

It is cheaper when you think about it.Because most of us already have a SB. So the addition of a turbo system, is just that. Kinda like buying a nitrous kit. You add it to what you already have. You don't have to buy a whole new motor.

Where is one turbo dude with a working turbo in a classi muscle car and an honest tabulation of ALL his out of pocket, to prove it?

Hi, how ya doing ? I am one of three on this board. They aren't as much of a post whore as I.

The turbo option for classic muscle cars has been touted for ten years now, or more, and I'm still not seeing them.

The biggest reason it took me so long is the idea of how much I thought it would cost. There where also a ton of complications I could just see. But I found an AWESOME website for that. It's not that difficult. Just time consuming.

During this same time frame, sales of mega cube crate engines, not to mention stroker kits, have exploded.

They are much easier than making a kit. But it would be just as easy to add a turbo, if someone made a kit available. Not to mention alot of them come with a warranty. Which gives them a warm fuzzy. But if your not breaking parts, you not making enough HP. I have come to grips with the fact that boost is addictive.And I am going to split this block.I only used the 100 shot for years. But this is much different.

All the stories I've ever seen in the mags about turbo cars and all the threads I've read in the forums describe either buggy, unreliable combinations, or guys who went through years of trial and error and throwing out unworkable combos to get to an acceptable result, or something close to it.

Up until about 2 weeks ago I was driving mine EVERY day to work. I started a new joband because of the way they do their pay, I had to wait a month for a paycheck. Then I started putting disc brakes on it. It drives PERFECT. I have a very small performance cam in it(F cam). It is a little cold blodded because you can't have a choke with a bonnet. But it has always been that way. I've never had a choke. I will fix that here in a bit with adjustable timing. The thing is an absolute blast. I emplore anyone to take a ride in a turbo charged V8. I am also going to lower the stall from 3500 down to a 2800 or 3k. And have 2.75's right now. The 3.27's are being assembled this week when I get some time to try those. I expect 15 mpg or higher to come. This friday I am taking it to the track and expect low 7's to high 6's in the 1/8 with 8lbs of boost.I'm only really gonna get one shot to hit those numbers because of the lack of cage. Same reason my name is still a goal.7.1's with a 100 shot with a little spin. Now I never have to fill a bottle again, or deal with 4.11's and no OD.

How long would it really take?

7 months start to finish working 72+ hrs a week.With some off and on laziness due to the " I'm never going to finish this thing" feelings. Most just can't do it. Lack of skills, or tools.

How every day liveable and reliable would the final product really be? Where will you be if the thing takes a crap on you in the middle of South Dakota? I have pretty good ballpark answers to those questions regarding NA setups, but no idea with a turbo. Answers, anyone?

It's just as reliable as anything. I did break down once when my faulty fuel return line started to leak. But this is not really turbo related. It coulda happend to anyone's fuel line.
Sorry to break up your post so much. But I didn't want to get anyone lost on what I was referring to. Not a flame here But it is catching on fast. I think alot of classic guys don't do it because most don't know you can do it with a carb. I didn't know you could put 30psi to a carb. AGAIN, I blame this on BRIANj5600 for sending me that stupid link to the same above. The thing that really sold me was the ability to go fast with cruising gear ratios. Then I found out how much better they are than any other power adder. From MPG, to how much easier it is on a block.

 

[10secgoal]

Alos, the turbo I have is pretty large for a 302. the 8 lbs right now is really out of the efficiency range. I expect it to go up exponentially when I start to turn it up.

Heres the build.
http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=553614&highlight=begun

Heres the cost to the best of my poor memory

Turbo=625 shipped to my door
Intercooler=300 You can get them cheaper and nicer, but they lacked a few features I needed. Also had to farm it out since I can't tig. But that is changing as we speak.
Fuel pump=300
Fuel fittings/braided lines=275 10 AN IS EXPENSIVE
Oil relocate/lines and fittings=130
Headers+some help from exhuast shop=259
LM-1...AFR meter(Must HAVE!!)=349
Bonnet and regulator=75
Muffler=39
Catch can=25
K&N=45
BOV=200
Wastegate=200
Silicone couplers=230 Due to the lack of room in these things I needed a few 90 deg couplers. They have a shorter radius than metal.
Hose clamps=50? For intercooler
Carb mods=<50
Autometer guages=70
All = 3300 bucks
Look on face of a group of "tuners" when they hear the BOV venting and not having an idea of where the F it came from=PRICELESS
Come on, you didn't think I'd type all that and not do a priceless bit did you ?!?!
Now it can be done much cheaper. You don't have to run an intercooler with about 8-12 psi depending on CR. I wanted one. I know I am going to a bigger motor and MORE BOOST. So I just want to be able to drop in a better intercooler when that comes. So without that, knock off a ton of $$ I knew in advance I would build a 800hp street car when I find a block.
You can also use two stock turbos from turbocoupes for about $200. No 200 dollar wastegate(they come with), and save 400 bucks on the turbo.
There is a ton of money to be saved if all you want is 400rwhp. Best part is you can to it to a BONE stock 289-302 and get 400rwhp with 10 psi or so. Cast pistons and all.

 

[haze187]

In California at least, vehicles sold as model year '76 or earlier are smog exempt. No smog checks, no worrying about what you do to the engine. If its not pre smog, you have get parts that have a C.A.R.B. Exemption Order number.

most counties in northern california only require a smog check when you transfer ownership, so for folks like me who dont ever plan on selling, can do anything they want to the motor....

 

[mtbdoc]

Turbos, classics, and havin' some fun!

Ohhhh man....I am hearing myself all throughout this thread. A bit of background:

My dad bought a '66 on my birthday in the fall of '65. Learned to drive it. Rolled it over on a dirt road 3 days after I turned 16...oops!

1979: bought a 66 'vert after graduating from college. Tried to do a restomod before such things existed [and crappy aftermarket support]. Car sat, floors rusted...

1985: turbocharged my daily driver VW Scirocco. In the driveway. In the winter. Ate 911's for lunch.

Couple of years ago I had the $ and a great mechanic/fabricator to help me get serious on the 'vert. Wanted to do a turbo, but just looked like too much effort. Over time, we've re-worked the rear suspension to allow 11" wheels under the sheet metal [posts are around here somewhere]. Adding front-to-rear rectangular steel tubing through the floor pans. R&C Motorsports MII front suspension. Engine: sportsman block forged 331 stroker/AFR 185's/Fox-Lake stage 3 ported GT 40 lower/Kenne Bell 2.2 liter blowzilla-flowzilla twin screw. Not completed...will be playing around w/ TwEECer and '89 ecu to try and make this thing operational!

Then there is the '65 2+2. Heard about this World 460, and have been awaiting someone to actually purchase one. Ought to be outrageously torquey in such a light car. More power? Nitrous would be so simple, and how often are you really even going to need it?

Suspension/handling issues remain. I eagerly await the work that EVM is doing, and continue to keep my eyes open on C-C for more ideas.

Turbo: love them, don't relish having TWO classics that have the complication of efi to keep up with...but blow-through carbs do work.

Okay...what can I add? Just this: A homemade rear-mount turbo might be just the ticket to add a few psi to well-built engine. My daily driver is a 2005 GTO that starts off pretty stout [LS2 puts 350 hp to the rear wheels]. The rear-mount turbo pushes ~480 at low boost; we're not done with tuning on the high boost, but we'll set the boost to bring it to 550-600rwhp on the dyno. That is a LOT of hp. People critique the rear-mount system, as the spool up on the turbo is not as instantaneous as with the turbo sitting at the end of an exhaust manifold. But there are advantages, especially when considering fabricating one for an older Mustang.

The rear mount gets almost all of the heavy stuff in the back of the car, and our old Mustangs can benefit from that. The intake plumbing drops the airtemp a lot, providing a cooler charge. A light car with a V-8 isn't in need of INSTANT boost, such that the .5-1 sec slower response is not an issue. There is one rear-mount street driven GTO running sub-10sec 1/4's, so the systems perform.

Fantasy: 460 small block, carb bonnet, simple rear-mount system with no intercooler. Modest size turbo with SMALL exhaust housing [the key on the rear-mount to spool quickly]. 5-6psi would produce far more than you could EVER really use...

And buy stock in a tire company!

 

[10secgoal]

We are planning on possibly doing one on my friends car. It's a 347. Maybe put two t-3 over the rear end with 60/48. Ought to do good way back there.

 

[180 Out]

10secgoal: Thanks for the replies and the link to your buildup thread. Thanks to you and the other guys I now have enough reading material to last until '07!

haze187: I still say to hang onto those smog parts. The problem is that the dogooders are continuously turning the screws ever tighter. Appeasement doesn't work because making a deal with today's dogooders has no effect whatsoever on what tomorrow's crop will be demanding.

Just one example to help you sleep a little worse at night: the technology exists today, a CARB has been considering its implementation for several years, to set up road side monitors to sniff the emissions of passing cars and photograph the license plates of gross polluters, just like the red light cameras. The use of that data could be either an immediate invitation to a Smog Check test station, or to flag the car's registration and wait for renewal time before lowering the boom. It's only a matter of political will, not technical ability, that determines if such a system goes into effect. As I already alluded, our Governator is going to be hard pressed to win re-election this fall, and he has no scruples against this form of government intrusion, if it would buy more votes than it would lose (which I think it would).

In fact, I read somewhere that CHP patrolmen have been told that they could view performance mods on cars -- wings, cowl hoods, lowering, fat tires -- as probable cause to suspect emissions tampering and to demand a look under the hood. Couldn't happen? What about that story last spring, about CHP agents tossing Boyd Coddington's shop and invading street rod shows to take down VINs to check for "fraudulent" representations of kit glass-bodied street rods as gennie '32's? Don't ever think that there is any form of government intrusion that could "never happen."

 

[10secgoal]

10secgoal: Thanks for the replies and the link to your buildup thread. Thanks to you and the other guys I now have enough reading material to last until '07!

No prob

In fact, I read somewhere that CHP patrolmen have been told that they could view performance mods on cars -- wings, cowl hoods, lowering, fat tires -- as probable cause to suspect emissions tampering and to demand a look under the hood. Couldn't happen? What about that story last spring, about CHP agents tossing Boyd Coddington's shop and invading street rod shows to take down VINs to check for "fraudulent" representations of kit glass-bodied street rods as gennie '32's? Don't ever think that there is any form of government intrusion that could "never happen."

Well the funny thing is up until about a month ago I was in the towing industry. You become pretty close with the cops. I talked to one about a similiar topic. If he thought someone was suspicious in anyway, he could find a way to pull you over. I asked him like what. He said maybe you tread looks low. I asked him what happens if you write him a ticket, and he goes to fight it because you should have never pulled him over. Because his tires weren't low." I thought they were low at the time" And that flies in court.