remember the guy...

riceslayer302 · Jul 9, 2008

vri, above you mentioned using the hose clamps as a compressor or in place of a compressor. this isnt how i did this. i rented the compressor for 50 bucks from autozone, compressed the spring, and then used the clamps to hold the spring compressed as i fit them into the shock tower. i then jacked the a-arm up onto the spring and lifted the car off the ground with a large jack, i then cut the clamps one by one until i had no clamps left, installed my strut and caster camber plates, put the wheel on, and lowered the car to the ground.

just wanted to clear up any confusion.

i agree this thread should remain open.

vristang · Jul 9, 2008

Thanks for the clarification... I was indeed envisioning the spring being compressed using the hose clamps.

This really doesn't change my stance though. A potentially dangerous energy source is still be 'controlled' by using a clamp in a manner other than it's intended use. Any design values/safety factors built into the hose clamp design by the manufacturer become void.

Your explanation does make me want to ask another question though.

How are you ensuring that the hose clamps are evenly loaded?
Just today I was reading that when using a CALIBRATED torque wrench, bolt loading can vary significantly (can't recall the numbers right now, and can't find the document). EDIT: Found the document...I found the article...
Electrics/Electronics/Avionics - Aerospace Engineering & Manufacturing Online

“Reality is quite different, though,” said Robert Molsbergen, President of the King of Prussia, PA-based company Load Control Technologies (LCT). “Tests have shown that bolt clamp loads scatter by up to ±30% when the tightening is merely torque-controlled and by up to ±15% if torque and angle control are applied.”

If a calibrated tool has variation, how close do you think you are getting to even loading when you 'torque' by hand?

This question becomes critical when you consider what happens should one of the clamps fail.
There is an instantaneous surge in load as pressure is redistributed through the remaining hose clamps.
Load on each clamp will spike before the load settles out at the new distributed level.
If one clamp had already been overloaded (to the point of failure), then other hose clamps are very likely to fail during the load spike.

93 teal terror · Jul 10, 2008

Since I'm unemployed at the moment and bored out of my mind, I ran some quick #'s based off the manufacturers website and my own research. Heres what I found:

Using AISI 201 stainless steel for the hose clamps, assuming you are using the largest width clamp which their site says is 15.8mm, I come up with a yield strength of 686#/side of clamp in pure tension with a total of 1372#'s/clamp. Keep in mind this is a static load and doesn't account for the worm or screw gear connection. Ultimate tensile strength is 2744#/clamp. If you don't know the difference between the two after the yield strength is reached, for all purposes the clamps have failed and elongation or yielding is occuring. At that point you better run.

Now my Ford Tool (OTC 7045B) uses a 3/4" all thread rod. Im assuming a typical A36 steel but it appears to be hardened so its probably more like 50ksi. Using the 36ksi value, I got 15,900#.

So with that reasoning you would need 12 clamps to equal the strength of the tool that was made for this purpose. And again thats not taking into account the gear connection of the clamps which probably greatly reduces the values I listed.

If the strength due to the connection reduces the value by half and you use 50ksi steel for the threaded rod on the real tool, you would now need 33 clamps to match the strength of the tool Ford designed. For me, I'll just stick with the tool that was designed to do the job. My life is worth more than $300

Feel free to check my #'s, I did them quickly and didn't check them

riceslayer302 · Jul 10, 2008

checked your numbers...

93 teal terror · Jul 10, 2008

How so?

Camman · Jul 10, 2008

93 teal terror said:
Since I'm unemployed at the moment and bored out of my mind, I ran some quick #'s based off the manufacturers website and my own research. Heres what I found:

Using AISI 201 stainless steel for the hose clamps, assuming you are using the largest width clamp which their site says is 15.8mm, I come up with a yield strength of 686#/side of clamp in pure tension with a total of 1372#'s/clamp. Keep in mind this is a static load and doesn't account for the worm or screw gear connection. Ultimate tensile strength is 2744#/clamp. If you don't know the difference between the two after the yield strength is reached, for all purposes the clamps have failed and elongation or yielding is occuring. At that point you better run.

Now my Ford Tool (OTC 7045B) uses a 3/4" all thread rod. Im assuming a typical A36 steel but it appears to be hardened so its probably more like 50ksi. Using the 36ksi value, I got 15,900#.

So with that reasoning you would need 12 clamps to equal the strength of the tool that was made for this purpose. And again thats not taking into account the gear connection of the clamps which probably greatly reduces the values I listed.

If the strength due to the connection reduces the value by half and you use 50ksi steel for the threaded rod on the real tool, you would now need 33 clamps to match the strength of the tool Ford designed. For me, I'll just stick with the tool that was designed to do the job. My life is worth more than $300

Feel free to check my #'s, I did them quickly and didn't check them

Y would you make a post like this in a forum like this? People on corner carvers sureley could understand it, but I am betting less than 10 percent of readers here have a clue of what you are saying. And almost gauranteed the ford piece has a safety factor well above 5.

riceslayer302 said:
checked your numbers...

More than likely If you actually had the ability you would have to have higher level math and physics courses, which in turn means you would surely have been working toward a degree in the sciences field, which in turn means you would have had at least 1 ethics course along the way, which in turns means you wouldn't have started this thread in the first place.

Can't we just agree that using hose clamps SHOULD NOT BE RECOMMENDED FOR THIS PURPOSE. now rather or not you decide to use this method on your own is totally up to you, but remember, you are taking a huge risk that surely will put you in danger, and you may lose a body part or even your life. Would it really be worth it?

vristang · Jul 10, 2008

^^^I like that post

riceslayer302 said:
checked your numbers...

I'm gonna call
on your BS flag....

Please provide corrected numbers...

The strength loss due to the screw mechanism will be large. Just look at the loss in cross-sectional area. Think about how the screw will be imparting the load on the steel strap...
If the backing of the hose is not there to reinforce the 'screw' section, the strength will take a major hit.

Previously I mentioned an article that discussed the variation in bolt loading when a torque wrench was used....

I found the article...
Electrics/Electronics/Avionics - Aerospace Engineering & Manufacturing Online

“Reality is quite different, though,” said Robert Molsbergen, President of the King of Prussia, PA-based company Load Control Technologies (LCT). “Tests have shown that bolt clamp loads scatter by up to ±30% when the tightening is merely torque-controlled and by up to ±15% if torque and angle control are applied.”

(a coworker of mine is currently performing the durability testing on one of these systems)

30% variation is huge.
and I bet you guys aren't using a torque wrench to install the hose clamps, are you?

jason

25thmustang · Jul 10, 2008

Camman said:
Y would you make a post like this in a forum like this? People on corner carvers sureley could understand it, but I am betting less than 10 percent of readers here have a clue of what you are saying. And almost gauranteed the ford piece has a safety factor well above 5.

Not only that, but when a lot of us deal with numbers and math all day... DONT want to read it on the forum.

93 teal terror · Jul 10, 2008

What can I say, I've been out of work for a month and a half and getting bored. I found myself checking the loading of a parking deck I was sitting in the other day while I was waiting for my fiance to get out of class.....I need a job!!!

joel5.0 · Jul 10, 2008

So compressed springs are safe?........ I cannot believe the irresponsibility of suggesting a procedure that could kill the operator, or any bystanders ......

YouTube - How NOT to do a Strut

LiquidGT · Jul 10, 2008

This thread.

1SickFox · Jul 10, 2008

Hey,
Sorry i did not mention that as well. The method that i preach is exactly in the order that i have listed below. Again, this method is only because i can not find a spring compressor that will fit in my control arms, thus not allowing me to install the compressed spring. Instead i use hose clamps because they don't interfer with the control arm/strut/etc. It is simple AND SAFE. Blow me if you think its not safe. Whatever, i'm not hear to argue with people, just give them a method that works awesome.

Hose Clamp Method
- For Front suspension ONLY, rear is similar though!
1. Compress spring with a spring compressor (Mount in vise, use air tool to compress spring)
2. Install 5 hose clamps on the spring while it is compressed
3. Remove spring compressor
4. Installed compressed spring(by hose clamps only) into control arm
5. Jack up control arm with floor jack
6. Tighten strut to spindle bolts
7. Cut hose clamps
8. DONE
9. Thank me

riceslayer302 · Jul 10, 2008

exactly how i did it, worked flawlessly, it was just a little scary cutting out the clamps.

1SickFox · Jul 11, 2008

riceslayer302 said:
exactly how i did it, worked flawlessly, it was just a little scary cutting out the clamps.

I see, you must have had the spring to compressed then. So when you cut the clamps it jumped a little i bet hu? Either way, once its in the a-arm it ain't coming out, nothing to be scared of ha. Works good though right?!

vristang · Jul 11, 2008

joel5.0 said:
So compressed springs are safe?........ I cannot believe the irresponsibility of suggesting a procedure that could kill the operator, or any bystanders ......

YouTube - How NOT to do a Strut

Joel,
This was great. Thank you for posting this!

I hope you guys actually watched this.

The guy in the video looks to be a good 200Lbs. and he was standing on the spring to try and 'stabilize' it. His weight wasn't adequate and the spring still flew across the parking lot
Nearly putting the guy on his ass... and the spring didn't even hit him... it just slid out from under him...

Now imagine if there is something behind the spring for it to react against.
ALL of that energy is going in ONE direction. If your body is in that path, you will be lucky to walk away.

While I will admit that a spring compressor can be a little awkward to work with, it isn't impossible.
Maybe you guys should consider that if you can't make a spring compressor work the way it was designed to... you shouldn't be working on cars at all

I just don't get it guys...

vristang · Jul 11, 2008

LiquidGT said:
This thread.

Once again...

If you don't like this thread, then don't post in it.... problem solved.

vristang · Jul 11, 2008

1SickFox said:
It is simple AND SAFE.

What are you willing to put on the table to make that gaurantee.

Have you done any strength testing?
Hell, have you done any strength calculations?
What is the safety factor/margin of safety for hose clamps?
If someones vehicle is damaged because they tried your method, would you cover the cost of the damage?

Unless you are willing to take responsibility for your claims, you shouldn't be making them.

Hopefully most folks reading this will understand that...

vristang · Jul 11, 2008

riceslayer302 said:
checked your numbers...

Please, I would like to see what you would do differently.

1SickFox · Jul 11, 2008

vristang said:
What are you willing to put on the table to make that gaurantee.

Have you done any strength testing?
Hell, have you done any strength calculations?
What is the safety factor/margin of safety for hose clamps?
If someones vehicle is damaged because they tried your method, would you cover the cost of the damage?

Unless you are willing to take responsibility for your claims, you shouldn't be making them.

Hopefully most folks reading this will understand that...

I think you missed the part where i said....

1SickFox said:
Blow me if you think its not safe.

vristang · Jul 11, 2008

What that tells me is you don't care about the outcome of the advice you are giving.

If you had a sincere desire to help others, then you would NOT have responded in this way.

I'm not willing to put any faith in your claim that this is a SAFE activity, because you have presented NO information to back up the claim.
AND
You are not willing to take any responsibility for the outcome of your advice.

This gets back to one of the very fist points I tried to make in this thread.
The internet has ZERO accountability.
The dweebles in this thread have done an excellent job of highlighting the potential impact the lack of accountability can have.

jason

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