Rocker Install, Pushrod Length Problem?

[mostsmooth]

hi all

95 mustang gt

preface: i have no real knowledge of anything related to an engine or repairs.
i know how to change my oil, i know how to change brakes, i know how to follow instructions.

now, imo there has always been a bit too much noise coming from under my valve covers. others had done work to the engine, and i assumed they knew what they were doing.

at one point the car had a supercharger which i removed when a bearing went bad.

so, just to see if i could do it, i took the top half of the engine apart and swapped in a new cam.
the cam that i replaced was a ford letter cam that allegedly matched the charger. i think it was an E but might have been X.

when i took the cam out, it was worn in a couple places, one lobe was obviously damaged a bit (i think it was cylinder 6).

i put in a comp cam, new cam is comp cam CCA-35-351-8.
when i put things back together, i put in all new hydraulic lifters. 1 was damaged badly, so i replaced all.
when i had the heads off, i took them to a shop and the guy cleaned them up. i dont remember him doing anything with the valves, but even if he did, i think it wouldnt cause my problem. i am thinking that if he cut the valves or shaved the heads or whatever, then that would effectively make the rods longer, which is the opposite of my problem.

i used regular head gaskets.

rockers are 1.6 ford roller rockers. they are not shimmed.
pushrods as far as i know are stock. i measured them with a ruler to get a ballpark length and they are just a tad over 6.25" so perhaps they are actually stock if stock is like 6.27" i think.

i put everything back together, started it up and it fired right up. but it was making a horrible noise, much worse than ever. disconnected plug wires one at a time and found it was something with #5. took off the driver side valve cover and one rocker was super loose. im almost certain i torqued it down. i realized though that all i did was torque them down, but i didnt follow the correct procedure of slowly tighten to 0 lash, then torque and should be 1/4 to 1/2 turn or so. so since i had the cover off and now knew the proper install procedure, i decided to do them all.

so i set #1 to tdc, did the proper procedure on the intake rocker. actually, i think i did the proper procedure, i watched and read different things and i think i did what was right. i rotated the crank by hand until the exhaust valve just started to open.
then i spun the oil pump with my hand drill to help pump up the lifters ( i assume). i think i did it much longer than necessary.
then i slowly tightened the rocker on the intake side while checking the pushrod. once the pushrod stopped spinning freely, i torqued the rocker bolt to 20lbs. it took almost 1/4 turn. all done, felt pretty good i did it right and it was good.
then i turned the crank by hand until the intake valve opened all the way and just started to come back up.
spun the oil pump again excessively (oil was flowing through rockers etc)
followed same procedure for tightening the rocker down, and the pushrod never stopped turning freely even after i torqued the bolt down to 20lbs
so i dont know if what i consider turning freely is correct. but right now i am assuming there is a problem. seems the pushrod isnt long enough, but maybe the lifters take much longer to pump up than i thought?
perhaps if i torqued it to 22lbs ?
im under the impression that the pushrods shouldnt be able to rotate freely no matter where rocker is, right?

i want to make sure i do it 100% correct this time.
what should i do/try?
am i doing the install correctly?
could it be that after i hand rotated the crank, i didnt wait long enough for the lifter to pump up? i rotated the crank and then spun the oil pump and went right to slowly tightening the rocker while twisting the pushrod. should i have waited a bit after spinning the oil pump?

i was thinking about marking the top of the valve stem with the dry erase marker and checking where the rocker is riding on the valve stem, but id the pushrod isnt tight, would this be a waste of time, or would doing this help me determine the problem? i assume that if i do this it will show that the rocker isnt rolling dead center on the valve stem (but again, i have no real knowledge, just guessing).


if you read all this, thanks!

 

[jozsefsz]

It sounds like you're doing it right (assuming you have pedestal-mount rockers). If the pushrod is still turning freely after you torqued down (you can spin it by hand) when they are un-shimmed then your pushrods are probably too short (this is assuming your cam is in good shape and as it's new that should be true, and that your rockers are likewise in good shape which as they're new they should be).

As you mention some head work, it's possible things have changed with how everything aligns and that you'd want some longer pushrods (though if they'd been milled I'd expect it's usually shorter rods needed, but head gaskets can be thicker, the cam base-circle could be a little smaller, and so on).

I replaced my stock pushrods with these: Ford Racing High Performance Mustang Pushrods M-6565-L302 (85-95 5.0L) - Free Shipping when I upgraded to Crane pedestal-mount 1.7 roller rockers. Again I'm assuming based on your steps that you are likewise using pedestal rockers (otherwise you could take up the slack with proper rocker adjustment using stud-mounted rockers, and the adjustment procedure is different from what you've described). Your measurements sound about correct, these are 6.272, the stock length.

I don't think it's unusual to get some noise after installing new lifters, even if you've primed them up with the oil pump. I always have, but it lasts 5-10 seconds tops. Since you've now traced the problem to a single cylinder, I'd suspect your rocker may be faulty. Remove, check for play, consider transferring to another cylinder to see if the noise moves along with it. It's also possible that the lifter on #5 collapsed (sometimes happens even with new lifters) so moving rockers & pushrods could help you determine what's happening without pulling things apart again.

 

[mostsmooth]

cam is new, yes. not even broken in yet.
the regular 'noise' i hear from the valve covers has been that way for a long time before i took the engine apart. just seemed noisier than i thought it should be.
the new loud noise was an isolated thing. this is the reason i want to do them right this time. the rocker wasnt even on the pushrod. i think that problem is gone.
the rockers are not new. they are at least 16 years old (yes, pedestal)

the car had been sitting for a few years, and then i took it apart which lasted a couple more years, i just put it all back together last week and havent even driven it yet. once i heard the noise i took it apart again.

relocating the rockers isnt a solution because it doesnt seem to be part of the problem i am dealing with. the loud noise problem is already solved i hope. if i get this pushrod stuff straightened out and button it up and have to take it apart again im gonna cry

 

[revhead347]

Your disclaimer is strangely familiar to the preamble of every post I make on ubuntuforums.

To answer your question about the lifters pumping up, yes it takes a very long time by design. You should always assemble with full lifters. They should be soaked in an oil bath for 24 hours prior to installation. It literally takes that damn long for the oil to seep into them. Not sure if that helps.

Kurt

 

[mostsmooth]

Your disclaimer is strangely familiar to the preamble of every post I make on ubuntuforums.

To answer your question about the lifters pumping up, yes it takes a very long time by design. You should always assemble with full lifters. They should be soaked in an oil bath for 24 hours prior to installation. It literally takes that damn long for the oil to seep into them. Not sure if that helps.

Kurt

so youre suggesting i spin the oil pump a day before and then try again?
i saw people talking about maybe waiting 2 minutes. 24 hours seems long

i cant wait 24 hours between each pair, thats crazy?

 

[revhead347]

No, you literally dump the lifters in bucket of oil and let them sit in there for 24 hours.

For right now, try this. Run the primer while you are hand cranking the engine over with the valve covers off. The lifter will not prime while it is opening a valve, so you rotate the engine manually so every lifter has on opportunity to get oil flow while it's down. Also inspect to make sure oil is flowing to the top of each rocker.

Kurt

 

[mostsmooth]

No, you literally dump the lifters in bucket of oil and let them sit in there for 24 hours.

For right now, try this. Run the primer while you are hand cranking the engine over with the valve covers off. The lifter will not prime while it is opening a valve, so you rotate the engine manually so every lifter has on opportunity to get oil flow while it's down. Also inspect to make sure oil is flowing to the top of each rocker.

Kurt

actually, i spun the oil filter with the rocker off as well, so that should have done the trick

 

[mostsmooth]

whats a better plan:
-buy one of those push rock checker length checker things and see what length i need
-or just buy some longer push rods (+.030, 0.60? some other size?) and shim if necessary (i already have shims)
-check where each rocker is riding on each stem and figure out the length i need (not sure if this makes sense or can be done)

 

[revhead347]

I'd get the tool and check. You can check where it rides on the stem with a magic marker. Shimming the rockers does not correct the valve geometry if the pushrods are the wrong length. You have a particularly unusual problem. I have honestly not run into a situation where one particular valve was off like that, which is why I am fixating on the lifter problem.

Kurt

 

[ranger5652888]

Pull the lifters and soak them for 48 hours if new and spend 10 bucks and get a adjustable push Rod to measure length with and go from there.

 

[mostsmooth]

im not taking the heads off if i can avoid it.
if i pull the rockers and just spin the oil pump for a few minutes, that isnt gonna pump them up?
if not, how do they get pumped up when the engine is working normally?
i run the car, the pushords squeeze the lifters and i shut the car off, how are the lifters getting pumped back up?

 

[revhead347]

You don't need to pull the heads to get the lifters out, just the intake.

Kurt