spark timing tables and power adders

I've not had any forced induction experience Larry
but
I don't mind helping in other areas if I can

First thing I would point out is .......

NA and PA is really radical different applications :Word:
so
What works for one is not gonna be the best method for the other

Where do you get the 32 degrees of spark value Larry

Grady

Settings all other spark tables to 55 will ignore them. On the base spark table I have the top 2 rows from 2000 up at 19*. So it just locks at 19* with enough throttle. I still get it pulled when it warms up enough though. I don't have n20 so I am not really sure, but it should be the same. Others should comment though.

biglar said:

Spark tables for power adder use

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, is 26 total advance correct if i was using N2O 150 shot? im assuming that a 1995 CBAZA strategy ecm uses 32 total advance in N/A form. Im basing this on the theory of removing 2 degrees of timing for every 50 shot of N2O. i do see alot of turbo and blower folks using 21 degrees of total advance.this is where im confused. Also Sailor bob wrote over in [eectuning.org] that in cbaza to tune your spark off the BDLN spark table and to set all other spark tables to 55???? is this correct as right now im tuning off the base spark table and all other spark tables are set to 55. I dont want to screw this up due to the N2O use. By the way i think Sailor Bob is a very well respected tuner and please dont feel that im dissin his word its just that ive gotten conflicting stories on this subject when doing searches and as you all know power adders and stock hyperuthethic pistons arent a good marriage

Thanks again guys

larry

Click to expand...

Brett has some great advice on the spark. If you figure 2* drop per 50 shot, minus the 26* total advance, that puts you around 19-20.

Get the AFR in the mid 11's and have at it.

PM blksn995.0 - he can give some razor-sharp advice.

Wes

If you are tuning in the base spark table, set it and the altitude table to be the same due to the way CBAZA interpolates between the two. This is how I do it.

Aluminum headed N/A motors usually end up around the mid-lower 30s for total spark advance. You want to start lower and then work it up slowly, looking for the most power. The power will drop off before it starts detonating.

Hell, I started my WOT spark at a whopping 15 for the supercharger and gradually worked it up to 21.

Wes

OK Larry

Gonna be a bit long
but
I feel you need some basic info to turn on the light as they say

I guess I'd say I had a concern
when I saw you quote the value of 32 degrees

When you look at CBAZA spark tables ...........
what you see is THE value and you DO NOT add 10 for the dizzy setting

another way of looking at the tables is ........
Those values are ASSUMED that 10 is the setting of the dizzy

Now you can have some + or - of spark value done with things such as
ect, atc and the like (which happens more in the t4m0 than in the j4j1) but
for the most part ... what you see in the table will be the ballpark value of
what you are gonna see in your WOT dlogs when talking about greatest
load row values.

I will say I've tried various methods of playing around with
all four tables of base, altitude, borderline, and mbt and I
spent a good bit of time doing it

My objective in doing so was to be able to see the values
I called for in my file were the same values I saw in my
WOT dlogs ... AND ... I expected them to match ... EXACTLY :Word:

Using the t4m0 as a foundation in my early efforts at learning all
this stuff ... I could NOT make WOT dlog values match file values
until I took out the bline & mbt tables with 55 in all cells.

Also .........

I can say I've found no difference in using base and altitude together
or just the base only for more ease of tuning ... either method gives
me the matching file & dlog values that I require

Now about your desire to find a value based upon using ... The Juice

I don't quite understand the reasoning of picking a value such as
32 degrees when your pcm won't call for it in the first place

That that 36 degree value you spoke of ...........
Its a rule of thumb for ................................................. NA COMBOS

I'd tell you to listen to Wes, Brett, and other forced folk

But understand ... If you're talking about a stock table........
You'll see at max load about 26 like Wes said
So
To make sure you don't have any issues ........
The 32 to 36 degrees here won't be applicable to your application
At least ... as I see it

About sailorbob ... Yes ... I too feel he knows his stuff

I'd tell you he said to use the bline table due to a specific application
which is great for a forced combo.

Please allow a bit of copy & paste tactics from my personal files
to help here

The info is quite old and goes way back to the early days of the
old EEC Tuner when we all were cutting our teeth on how to tune
but I do feel it can help you Larry as it did me way back then

I MUST give credit to Mr. David Posea
He was so helpful to me and I learned so much from him :Word:

From: spiro <tanastog@o...>
Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 9:35pm
Subject: Altitude , BAse , and Bordeline Spark tables

Hi ,

Does anyone know when the altitude , base and Borderline spark tables are used by the EEC?
I know the base is probably for sealevel , and altitude is used for
altitudes , depending on barometric pressure and eec extrapolates
form the two to use as a spark table. Does any one know how it calculates
the spark table?

Also when is the bordeline spark table being used and how ? Is it tied
with the other two tables?

Thanks

Spiro

From: David Posea <dposea@m...>
Date: Sun Nov 12, 2000 4:33pm
Subject: Re: Altitude , BAse , and Bordeline Spark tables


All three are used all the time Base and altitude spark are combined
based on barometric pressure, and most eec's use just the base table until
pressure is below 26in/hg. Set them to the same values and you won't need to
worry about that!!

The borderline table gets lots of things added to it, then it is compared
with the value from the base/alt table, and the lower value is used. On
later EECs there is also an MBT spark table that is also used, again with
the lowest value being used.

David

From: <vinson.r.dansby@a...>
Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 8:31am
Subject: Re: Altitude , BAse , and Bordeline Spark tables


David, this statement is just to clarify what your wrote, the eec
(eec V)takes a look at all three tables and then takes the lowest
value to used as timing. So in theory I should or could set one of
the tables (spark_base_table or spark_borderline_det_table)to a high
number, say 55, and set one table to the values that I want the eec
to use. But, which table do I set high and which table do I use to
set my timing? Also, whare does the spark_MBT_table come into play
and how does it affect the timing that I set?

From: <dposea@m...>
Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 11:54am
Subject: Re: Altitude , BAse , and Bordeline Spark tables


See the MBT post for more details on it. It is normally higher than
base spark, so it doesn't get used. You can set either base spark or
borderline spark to 55 (or 63) and tune using only one table. Which
you choose depends on what you want to do. The borderline table value
is modified by A/F ratio, ECT, ACT, and a couple of other things.
Base spark only gets added too by EGR, mostly. So if you want spark
to change with changing conditions, set the base table high. If you
want the same spark values all the time, set borderline high.

David


Lastly ... Optimizing WOT fuel & spark is where one can do damage :Word:

I feel it best
To ensure with a Wideband the fuel is fat like Wes said above

BEFORE

Going for the spark values that produce the most WOT power

Again ... sorry for the long reply ... I hope this stuff helps

Grady

biglar said:

As always grady " the cream always rises to the top !!!" Another fine explanation of how things work. many thanks buddy

BigLar

Click to expand...

Glad the info helped my friend

I can't help it

I just got a soft spot in my heart
for those who are trying to learn what makes that little silver box tick

Hey ... I can certainly remember how overwhelmed

I was when I started to learn all this stuff

That info I shared with you from some of my oldest files ..........

I bet I was more lost then than you are now :Word:
so
I was glad to pass on something that helped me in the past

Grady

Make 110% sure you N/A is correct. There is an old addage I heard...a good running N/A motor is a GREAT running n2o motor.

Always check/replace your wires, cap, rotor, make sure your at 10* at the dizzy (if running a tweecerR/T). At the 150 level you want at least 1 range colder plug and 2 is going to be the safest as well as a bigger fuel pump or an inline pump(did not read if did or did not have one).

For the bottle I would say 90% is actuall parts selection. I recomend at a BARE min. getting a window switch and some kind of spark booster box (MSD, Mallory, ect).

The tune portion is going to be all in the upper rows of the spark/fuel tables that deal with WOT. That means for best results a W/B o2 is needed to make sure your at your target A/F ratio. Start with the 2* for every 50hp from the stock total spark...and that is around 26. If you know were your cars sweet spot is for no ping N/A I would use that number -2* per 50hp as you "MAX" total spark if you want to SLOWLY add spark after you have made sure your fuel is good.

For fuel- target 11.5-11.8 at WOT.