http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23133282/
So this clown Belichick is a complete failure in Cleveland and then comes to New England and puts together a so called "dynasty." I was always real skeptical of that and not it appears that we know why.
Specter: Patriots have been taping since 2000.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23133282/
So this clown Belichick is a complete failure in Cleveland and then comes to New England and puts together a so called "dynasty." I was always real skeptical of that and not it appears that we know why.
Crzyhrse
Active Member
"Still, Specter wants to know why penalties were imposed on Belichick before the full extent of the wrongdoing was known and the tapes destroyed in a two-week span. Asked if he thinks there was a coverup, Specter demurred.
“There was an enormous amount of haste,” Specter said.
He scoffed at the reasons Goodell gave for destroying the tapes and notes, particularly about trying to keep them out of competitors’ hands and because Belichick had admitted to the taping.
"What’s that got to do with it? There’s an admission of guilt, you preserve the evidence,” Specter said. As for keeping the tapes out of the hands of others: “All you have to do is lock up the tapes.”
Belichick was fined $500,000 and the team was fined $250,000 because of the Spygate incident. The Patriots also forfeited a first-round draft pick."
This is exactly why I belive and posted in another thread that there was a lot more to "Spygate" than we were told earlier in the season. A deal was struck behind closed NFL doors and the incident was to be swept under the rug.
It is unknown what effect the taping had on Belichick's successes; one can only speculate. I just wish the NFL had been a bit more open about the entire thing and avoided these little "dribs and drabs" of information leaking out every now and then. It makes the NFL look bad.
“There was an enormous amount of haste,” Specter said.
He scoffed at the reasons Goodell gave for destroying the tapes and notes, particularly about trying to keep them out of competitors’ hands and because Belichick had admitted to the taping.
"What’s that got to do with it? There’s an admission of guilt, you preserve the evidence,” Specter said. As for keeping the tapes out of the hands of others: “All you have to do is lock up the tapes.”
Belichick was fined $500,000 and the team was fined $250,000 because of the Spygate incident. The Patriots also forfeited a first-round draft pick."
This is exactly why I belive and posted in another thread that there was a lot more to "Spygate" than we were told earlier in the season. A deal was struck behind closed NFL doors and the incident was to be swept under the rug.
It is unknown what effect the taping had on Belichick's successes; one can only speculate. I just wish the NFL had been a bit more open about the entire thing and avoided these little "dribs and drabs" of information leaking out every now and then. It makes the NFL look bad.
On this rather delicate issue, I would immediatly dismiss anything said on it by a Patriots fan. They are of course, going to be loyal to the coach who brought an otherwise run of the mill team, 3 Superbowl titles in a very short time.
Crzyhrse
Active Member
deftsound
Please ask me how much my supercharger cost
so umm, not being a patriots fan, or really caring much about the NFL, what the hell is the big deal about taping the other team?
i mean cmon, its like war, isnt the whole point of spying to try to figure out what the other side is doing? figuring out their movements and whatnot?
maybe teams should start doing random signals and **** on the sidelines to throw off the taping team, theyd all be like "**** wtf i think theyre punting on the 1st down!"
i mean cmon, its like war, isnt the whole point of spying to try to figure out what the other side is doing? figuring out their movements and whatnot?
maybe teams should start doing random signals and **** on the sidelines to throw off the taping team, theyd all be like "**** wtf i think theyre punting on the 1st down!"
Exactly. It's called getting a competitive advantage. The Patriots were the only team to get caught; they're definately not the only team to have done it in that time period. I have explained about this before in a thread on here and don't really care to elaborate again.. i'll try to get a link to my post, but they're not the only ones doing it... plus, if a team thinks its signals are being stolen then they should change them.
http://forums.stangnet.com/showpost.php?p=7337922&postcount=19
There's the link if anyone is interested.
Yeah Jason, I read over what you linked. I guess the big stink is the video taping aspect.
If a person was to watch, learn and steal signals from say a spectators seat, then relay them them to a friendly team, there's little to nothing anyone can do about it.
I think this case should be decided on what is legal and what is not. (As defined by the NFL's rules.)
As for me personally, I have no qualms with a clever person viewing & stealing signals. Provided they do it in such a way as it's legal. I'd very much object to a hidden camera in a teams locker room though where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. During a game you do not have this. Perhaps during some of Belichick's tapings, a taped team had a reasonable expectation of privacy? I have no idea. Just wish the NFL put it all out instead of trying to bury it.
If a person was to watch, learn and steal signals from say a spectators seat, then relay them them to a friendly team, there's little to nothing anyone can do about it.
I think this case should be decided on what is legal and what is not. (As defined by the NFL's rules.)
As for me personally, I have no qualms with a clever person viewing & stealing signals. Provided they do it in such a way as it's legal. I'd very much object to a hidden camera in a teams locker room though where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. During a game you do not have this. Perhaps during some of Belichick's tapings, a taped team had a reasonable expectation of privacy? I have no idea. Just wish the NFL put it all out instead of trying to bury it.
Someone just made these pics and posted them on net. They sort of fit in with the thread subject:
These may become a collector's item for Redline when he changes teams this year.
These may become a collector's item for Redline when he changes teams this year.
I think their cheating goes alot deeper than that, and the guy coming forward stating he stayed behind in the stadium to tape the Ram's final walkthrough is very significant, ESPECIALLY when you consider how close their Super Bowl victories were.
NKau
Founding Member
The only reason I can think of that Goodell would have destroyed the tapes is because they showed something pretty bad that would have really cast a shadow on what the Pats have done over the last few years, and probably upset a lot of fans.
I don't agree with the 'competitive advantage' argument one bit. Everyone steals signals; fine. Nobody else in the NFL was VIDEO TAPING other teams' walk-throughs and practices the week before a game with an opponent.
"I didn't believe what we were doing was illegal"........ OK Bill, I believe that as much as I believe that Roger Clemens didn't use HGH.
All I know is that the Pats are 0-1 in Super Bowls in which they weren't able to tape another team's practices/walk through
I don't agree with the 'competitive advantage' argument one bit. Everyone steals signals; fine. Nobody else in the NFL was VIDEO TAPING other teams' walk-throughs and practices the week before a game with an opponent.
"I didn't believe what we were doing was illegal"........ OK Bill, I believe that as much as I believe that Roger Clemens didn't use HGH.
All I know is that the Pats are 0-1 in Super Bowls in which they weren't able to tape another team's practices/walk through
Ok first thing i want to say is the walk through taping has no evidence to back it so far and is not proven.. Without evidence it's gossip and rumors or maybe even flat out lies.
I have heard there is even doubt this guy who claimed to tape the walk through even held the position he claimed to have held in the pats organization
BTW even if the walk through taping is true, that still does not explain the failures of the rams offense AFTER they ran through the first series worth of scripted plays... How the rams offense worked in 2001 was no secret the only thing you can gain from the walk through is knowing the first handful of plays in the game.. that those plays may even change in order or entirely depending on what the defense shows them
you might pick up something from a tap of the final walk through but you still have to run what you would normally run against them for a defense in case the rams offense opts out of the plays in the walk through or changes it in someway before the game..
now back to the dead horse of spy-gate I
they have been taping since 2000 WOW I am shocked..
Considering that the rule has only been enforced since the start of this season that just ended is anybody surprised that some teams were doing this??? in fact just about everybody was doing it through LAST season... Funny thing about this is 99 percent of people that want to bash Belichick don't realize that this taping of signals is STILL GOING ON..
Home teams can get away with taping signals under the " three walls and a roof" part of the NFL rules on videotaping on the field actions. Since the home team gets to setup the locations they tape from and the road team has to ask permission, what happens is the home team will take a position to tape from that has the signals in plain view while the road team is stuck with a view that does not allow them to see the signals.
Sure the NFL rule also reads that the home team must provide a equal view to the visitor but that equal view is of the playing field not of the sidelines.
I am going to go out on a limb here and just guess that Belichick did not invent this overnight in 2000.. in fact several former HC's admitted publicly and in private that this stuff has been commonplace and has been going on for a long time. the former commissioner turned his back on it and allowed it to go on.
BUT before the 2007 season began the NFL warned all teams that the new commissioner wanted to enforce this rule and as far as we know the patriots were the only ones who continued to tape..
BUT the patriots were caught in the first week and we will never know if the teams that played at home the first week would have done it on the road in the first road games of the season..
( earlier in this very long post i explained how home teams have a advantage in videotaping now I hope you guys can make the simple connection as to why a road team would be more inclined to break this rule than a home team.)
I really wish the tapes were not destroyed... I will bet those tapes taken at Gillette were very similar to the away game tapes but taken from higher up in the stadium rather than the sidelines.. If that was the case them the home game tapes would be legal.. Shady but still legal because of the three walls and a roof part of the rule and because the sidelines CAN be considered part of the on the field action by NFL rules..
this is a loophole in the rule that can not be fixed easily. teams have exploited this for years.
Shady but legal and commonplace.
See the real problem in what Belichick did is he taped from a a location that patriots coaching personal might have been able to look at the tapes during the game they were taken in.. Even with the chances of figuring out the live callers from the fakes and matching everything up small That still would be cheating, Flat out cheating if that can be proven.. As far as I know there is no proof that coaching personal was viewing the tapes during the game. ( during road games they taped from the sidelines not sure about home, the only leaked footage I saw were from a few road games in 2006 and the 2007 jets game at the meadowlands)
Now I am going to shoot a giant hole into the patriots only won because of the tape theory...
Why did they have their most dominant season AFTER they must have stopped the illegal part of taping and all earlier tapes were destroyed...
I know they lost the SB but this team was 18-0 and set NFL records for scoring margin. and you also fall into the idiotic " look at the difference in Cleavland vs. the success he has going in NE argument"
Well I could spend hours with reasons this "tapes were the main reason for success" is BS but I will just use a few reasons right now..
One other major flaw in pointing out that he (Belichick) only had success after taping is the fact that pats SUCKED in 2000 and for the early part of 2001
now i am going to try and explain in a simple way how this team turned around
You do have a point about Belichick's record in the last 7 years being much different than his time in cleve. and his first season in NE.. but you have the reason for the change WRONG..
there is TWO main reasons for the big turn around and none of them are what you want to hear..
You need to look at the numbers before and after Brady entered the picture.. the difference is amazing.. so here is reason number 1 for you
TOM BRADY... All of the dynasty Hcs have had that great QB.. Belichick lucked out in the 2000 draft and got a HOF QB in the 6th round.. Anybody who does not think this guy is a great qb is a moron plain and simple..
Before Brady Belichick in NE had a 5-11 first season here and then started 0-2 with the team looking hopeless. then as soon as Brady stepped in then things changed.
Reason number 2
In clev. belichick was not in control of personal..
Here in NE he has been the final say and he has done a very good job in that department.. In fact I think his true head and shoulders above the rest talent is in this part of his job and not the on the field stuff. the patriots have done a excellent job of filling holes over the years in a cost effective way..
To sum it up the reason for the patriots turnaround starting in 2001 is part belichick and a lot of Brady.. Without Brady belichick would have not won a single SB... If you do a bit of research into most of the great coaches and all of the dynasty coaches you will see they always had that big game winning franchise HOF qb..
you guys can assume it was taping that turned this team around but if you want to make that assumption without even thinking about it and understanding how the NFL really works then i can make assumption that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.
Now about spector and the investigation.
this whole investigation is a retarded waste of government money much like the Clemens investigation..
In both cases the party did do what they are accused of and for this reason the investigation is just grandstanding and possibly a shake down..
Clemens did do steroids and HGH
Belichick DID videotape defensive signals illegally
We know those are both facts so whats this big investigation going to turn up that is not known..
On belichick I will go a step further and say he probably taped in clev. too.... You people that want to bash just don't seem to get it.. Taping the signals was pretty much standard practice in those days, it was one of those things where everybody looked the other way... i suspected that he was taping for a lot longer than the rumored 05-2006- and 1 reg season game in 07 but their was no proof so anything else would just be rumor..
i am not saying taping signals is a noble thing to do, all i am saying is a lot more people than just belichick did it in some form or another..
The advantage gained with tapes like this really depends on how the tapes were used..
If the patriots or any other team doing this figured out a way to break the film down and figure out what signal was what and they were certian they got it right then it could be a sizeable advantage..
Only problem is even halftime is not long enough to put this info into action during the same game. Plus if that happened you would have some interesting statistical anomalies
Doing a quick scan of statistics I don't see anything there to back that up.
WHY do you think teams go through the trouble of elaborate schemes to confuse somebody tying to decipher the signals.. they sure don't do it for the fun of it and if people were not filming them they could be a lot more simple
To be honest I don't even think this investigation is aimed at the pats it's aimed to fire a shot across the bow of the NFL for the cable companies. Or even worse a waste of time just so Spector can grandstand
Don't we have more important things for the government to be doing than wasting time on stupid sports scandals.. Why don't they instead do something about how the elderly and the handicapped is getting hosed everyday by predatory lenders.. Or why don't they work on a solution to the immigration problem..
Or even better for me cut the budget so my taxes drop...
Sadly the elderly who are getting the shaft does not help Spector get the headlines that this silly stuff like Clemens,Bonds and the patriots will get for him and the other members of our government wasting time. A giant waste of time and money to find out what anybody who even bothered to read into this subject could have guessed.
Only good thing I can say for wasting time and money on this is at least the dimwits in Washington can only **** up something minor like a sport and not something important like what they usually **** up.
Now I don't want to spend 10 pages arguing about this as a pervious poster said..
I don't like witch-hunts and lynch-mobs and thats what this whole thing is turning into A witch trial.
I think something is a witch trial when a bunch of people who only know 1/10 of the story go make rash judgements on speculation and rumors and a little facts. This reeks of a witch-trial.
Dude, Spector met with him for an hour and a half. THats all. Its not like the Steriod thing that took months. All he did was ask questions.
And the Steriod thing needs to be done being that STERIODS ARE ILLEGAL DRUGS!!!!
And the Steriod thing needs to be done being that STERIODS ARE ILLEGAL DRUGS!!!!
And there has to be more to this little question something. Otherwise the Gov wouldn't care. I think they are looking for other things that were "buried".
Personally, I don't care. I do know that Belichick was told personally to not tape and he was arrogant enough to tape anyways, so that makes him an ass--------hole to me. He thought he was smarter than the system and he got nailed and then said he thought it was legal. Bitch please.
Personally, I don't care. I do know that Belichick was told personally to not tape and he was arrogant enough to tape anyways, so that makes him an ass--------hole to me. He thought he was smarter than the system and he got nailed and then said he thought it was legal. Bitch please.
I didn't read all of Mikes post because he spoke of the ONLY thing that matters at this point in the beginning of his post and that is they were told at the beginning of THIS season that it would be strictly enforced. The rest of the info coming out is sour grapes. Maybe the tapes and notes shouldn't have been destroyed but that is between Goodell and whomever has the authority to investigate destruction of evidence. Otherwise everything else is moot.
I wanted to pick this little piece out here and dispute it. The way I remember it, one of the reasons he was run out of Cleveland is for how poorly he handled the Bernie Kosar situation.
Matt Walsh, who claimed they taped the walk-thru of the 2001 Superbowl has yet to talk about it. They've helped him out from anything he could recieve from the Pats if he broke his contract, yet he still won't talk. He's just full of crap and has nothing to back it up now that he's safe to talk.
Stop assuming that they taped the walk-thru until they bring a tape or confirm the taping; until then, it's just a rumor.
In the words of Bill Parcells - "Anyone who thinks their signals aren't being stolen is stupid."
Stop assuming that they taped the walk-thru until they bring a tape or confirm the taping; until then, it's just a rumor.
In the words of Bill Parcells - "Anyone who thinks their signals aren't being stolen is stupid."
Other than embarrasing the NFL what can be gained from this?
then let the law enforcement people deal with it.. It's a MLB problem how they handle the CBA aspects of this
How is it sour grapes in the middle of my post is a few reasons i gave that the topic starters point has a lot of holes in it..
his point is the patriots only won by taping and that has more holes in it than swiss cheese..
All you people want to do is ignore reality in professional sports, you ignore fact and common sense just to rail road this team and this man..
For example several key members of the 2003 yankees were found to be on steroids or Hgh that series with the red sox was a 7 game series that was very close.. in fact a few of the people that were latter found to be on roids were big in that series..
DO you see me whinning that the yankees beat the red sox in 2003 with players that were cheating
NO and the reason for this is because I don't KNOW what the red sox players were doing.. It's likely that key members of the red sox were doing roids and HGH and did not get caught!
The yankees were not the only team with guys cheating and in this case the patriots are not the only team that did this..
in fact just about all of them if not all were doing it before this season
that was a on the feild choice he made.. To be honest I think that the clev. front office wanted to get rid of Kosar too at that point... belichick had the unpopular job of making that happen.
He still was not the final say on personal in cle.
there is strong doubt about this Matt Walsh guy.. He has been offered all kinds of deals for this evidence he supposedly has but so far nothing.. I don't know what to make of him right now. It sure looks like he is a fraud
the NFL supposedly investigated this quietly a few months back and they can not find a thing as to proof..
the Bernie Kosar situation was Art Models call. Belichick was run out of cleveland because he was a terrible head coach who would constantly run a 180lb Eric Metcalf up the middle on 3 straight plays for no gain.
the Pats were also eavesdropping on the opposing teams radio transmissions during the game.
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