sportsman block worth the extra $$$$

After everything I have read (which has been a LOT since I too am in need of a new shortblock) it really doesn't seem to be worth it. Its only marginally better than stock. I personally wouldn't even concider it as on option. Due to it being so close to a stock block I'd probably spend the $700 on better top end components if you really plan on only 500rwhp. One thing though, if you plan on 500rwhp with a stroker and are going to spin it failry high I don't think either block will last very long for you.

im in a similar boat right now. i am looking at 500whp or so and chp, keith craft, and dss have all told me that there is no need for anything more than a production block. i have heard horror stories at less than 500 at the wheels and am concerned. (i dont wont to spend $6500 or so on a longblock that is nothing more than an expensive time bomb.) the dart sportsman has been a consideration for me. is it really necessary though? also, is there any drawback to driving a closed deck bottom end on a daily basis? (dart or frpp r block)

any help is greatly appreciated since i am looking at ordering the longblock next week.....sorry about hijacking your thread bimmertech, but this seems to be info we can both benefit from.

What about that Boss block thats gonna be coming out soon....sounds pretty badass to me.

Through my research which has been a lot like Paul. I'd stay with the stocker. Theres no need to spend the extra money for a block that is barely better than stock. I know you don't want to spend the money on a dart but for the goals that you want, it maybe the only safe way to do it. Why exactly do you need to run wot 5th gear for so long. I'd save your block money and look into cooling systems cause you'll need one. I recently made a sheetmetal frame for the radiator that boxes to the bumper and forces air to go through the radiator instead of around it like it wants to. We'll see how well it works. I learned it from a guy that build american iron race cars. If you need another block, you know I've got mine in the back of the explorer. Let me know.

Jeremy

if i wanted a stronger 5.0 block id probably look for the mexican block, or just stick with the stock one, if u want to shell out the money the dart or that other ford one(not the sportsman) is the way to go

Sportsman is decent..thicker mains..lil more webbing ( a def step-up from the stocker)

I have seen many B50 fail at the same power levels as the stock block has been handling. Ford even dropped the rating on the B50 by 100hp or so because of failure issues.

I have been researching this same issue and I am getting the same answers. All the big engine builders are not even trying to sell me there high end motors. CHP said "only 450 -500 RWHP, you should stick with our base or mid level 306/331", just make sure you get it tuned". All the companies said it is all in the tune. Then I called local engine builders, they all said those numbers are easy, but I'll only buld it if I tune it. Again making sure the car gets tuned.
I think 90% of the guys that destroy their stock blocks, either don't have a good tune (or any tune)or pushed them to way more than 500rwhp.(If 10 psi did that, i wonder what 15 would do, BANG)(couldn't catch him with a 100 shot so lets try a 250 shot, BANG) Maybe 2% of those had defects or were built wrong.
I want 450-500rwhp and I am convinced that if it is done right the stock block will work.

Subscribing...In the same boat as Rog, but just not quite as soon.
RC

Subscribing.. Just got my 347 with vortech home yesterday Going to the dyno wed. to tune and see how much RWHP I have. Real concerned about my stock block should have gone dart... I expect to make 450 to 500rwhp.

Steve

bimmertech said:

it seems that everyone feels the sportsman is a waste so let us add a twist, who feels a main support does more than hold the pieces together when the thing shells out.

dss says that is the "key" to thier blocks holding that much power, but i have heard they are a waste.

Click to expand...

Ed Curtis said the only thing you can bolt to a stock block to make it stronger is a chain to remove it and replace it with a dart block.

To add to the confusion. A good friend of mine made 530rwhp with a stock block 331 running 8psi, it held up fine. Another friend had a high reving 347 over 7k rpm and 440rwhp and split the block.

There was an article in Hot Rod or something about the differences in thickness between stock blocks. Some companies test the thickness and pick out the best blocks. I don't know whos companies those are.

Another option to throw out is running a 351 block, but then you'd have to buy headers, distributor etc.

If you want the best answers you can get, post this on boards that have many more members that have been through this or that make 500rwhp or more... there are just not that many on here. Check out:
http://www.hardocre50.com and http://www.turbomustangs.com

I have had freinds split blocks in TUNED car at 420rwhp... these cars were also run at the track every week though and they did last a while. Detonation, RPM, and power are what kill stock blocks. The main caps walk and distort. I have no personal experience on the girdles, I think the theory is good and I wouldn't build a stock block without one, but from all I have seen I am a believer in the "all they do is hold the two halfs together."

I have a friend that recently built an iron eagle dart block for his 500rwhp fox (its gone 10.1 at 13Xmph). He is also the one that split his stock block when he was making 420rwhp. I asked him his thoughts on building the dart shortblock and he told me that he personally might have done things differently in that for the money he has in his dart block 347 he could have split 5+ stock shortblocks.

I think that with a prolonged load as you will see in the silver state classic, you are more proan to see a failure than most would with 500rwhp in a stock block.

As for the new ford block... if you have the luxury of waiting for ford to release something then go for it, but don't expect to see anything anytime soon.

One thing to mention about the mexican, dart iron eagle, and R302 is that they are not setup for hydraulic lifters and you'll need to either machine the block to accept your stock lifter spider or buy the retrofit lifters that are ~$400 which adds greatly to the cost of these blocks. I don't know if the sportsman needs these... I don't believe it does.

One thing to remember as well is that its not neccessarily the amount of power that kills te block, but also the way that power is made. You'll see a lot of pure street guys make the switch to the dart blocks even though they add weight to the nose of the car and these guys typically make in the low-mid400 range NA, but they do it with a lot of RPM. A supercharger car is more likely to crack a block than a turbo car (assuming the tune id dead on for both) due to the added stress on the front of the crank from the belt AND th fact that the supercharged car must make more power than the turbo car to obtain the same power levels due to the fact that the supercharger requires power to turn the belt... this goes hand in hand that a turbo car doesn't require as large as a fuel system as a blower car given the same power levels.

If you build a stock block based setup, I wouldn't waist money on any high dollar (ie forged) internals.

I too have spoken with a few of the "bigger" named companies and they said that a stock block should be fine with 500 or less RWHP, but everyone else that I trust and have delt with and I concider "in the know" have all laughed at me when I even mentioned keeping the stock block in anything making decent power.

I REALLY like the dart sportsman and that is the route I'll be going in if I ever decide to truely step up to some big power. I need to check into the cam bearings for it though as they are different than stock bearings but I don't know how much, if any, added cost this will add to a dart sportsman based buildup.

zenboy99 said:

Ed Curtis said the only thing you can bolt to a stock block to make it stronger is a chain to remove it and replace it with a dart block.

Click to expand...

LOL! He basically told me the same thing.



Here's a link I forgot to add in my post, this may help shed some light on the subject.

http://bbs.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=29395&highlight=stock+block+blues

Killercanary said:

http://bbs.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=29395&highlight=stock+block+blues

Click to expand...

Someone should publish a book of Ed's posts.

KillerCanary said:

One thing to mention about the mexican, dart iron eagle, and R302 is that they are not setup for hydraulic lifters and you'll need to either machine the block to accept your stock lifter spider or buy the retrofit lifters that are ~$400 which adds greatly to the cost of these blocks. I don't know if the sportsman needs these... I don't believe it does.

Click to expand...

The dart sportsman which is rated about the same as an R is designed for the stock type lifters and hold down piece. I know because thats what i have. But i ended up getting a hell of deal on a new set of crane tie-bar lifters so i kind of wish i would have stepped up to the iron eagle (which was another 300 bucks).

For the money i think a 351 stroker would be your best bet, and if you can find a 69-71 block that would be plus.

I had a friend tell me that stock would handle lots of power just not lots of rpms. I started thinking about this and it makes sence. That is why there are bone stock motors (oil pan to throttle bodies) making 600 rwhp and lasting with a turbo. (They make huge power without overspinning the motor)

I hit the 500rwhp mark with my 331 (stock block with girdle and windage tray) and had it as a daily driver but it never went past 6200 rpms. And lasted the whole time i had it.

A girdle may or may not be benificial to you but i would deffently recommend a windage tray. When i rebuilt the 418 shortblock that Jesse bought from me the one thing that everybody recommended was to have a windage tray. Keep as much uncessary oil from coming into contact with the crank as possible. (Too bad there was a faulty timing chain on that motor. )

moneypit94 said:

The dart sportsman which is rated about the same as an R is designed for the stock type lifters and hold down piece. I know because thats what i have. But i ended up getting a hell of deal on a new set of crane tie-bar lifters so i kind of wish i would have stepped up to the iron eagle (which was another 300 bucks).

Click to expand...

I should have been more clear on my post as I meant to say that the dart sportsman DOES accept our stock hyraulic lifters and hardware, but I was unsure about the ford sportsman block. I do believe it does as well but I'm not certain. Thanks for re-clarifying my post, it was a little confusing when I re-read it!


Those tie-bar lifters are why I wouldn't even concider an R302, dart iron eagle, and the older OEM blocks. If the iron eagle accepted the hydraulic lifters I wouldn't even concider the dart sportman, but that one feature seals the deal for me in which block I'd choose if and when the time ever came around.

Moneypit took the words right out of my mouth. High revving rpms and torsional vibrations are whats gonna kill the block. Like he said, stock motored turbo cars have been to 600+ rwhp and held it just fine. Because the didn't need to go past 6k to do it. I've also seen stock blocks go into the 9's but you won't see him shifting past 6300. I believe if you can build it right, make the power sooner in the band, and get a great tune. You'll be alright. But if thats not the case. Start pricing out Dart combos or look for another goal. You already know my goals and thats why the only thing I get to do is save up money, because Bennetts building my turbo set up shortblock. But its gonna be grenade proof and think a 1000rwhp combo is just another day at work. Haha

Jeremy