Spout Question

hssnpny · Aug 8, 2010

So it's that time again for the Cali smog check. I pass emissions but the guy fails me for a missing evap cannister and failure to idle with the spout removed so he can get the base timing. My idle went into a severe surge until it just died.

I have since figured out that the cannister is inside the passenger fender.

What I'm wondering is, is it ok to pull the spout while the car is running like the smog tech did? When I remove the spout with the car off, then start it, it has been idling fine.

toyman · Aug 8, 2010

It shouldn't matter. With the spout removed timing is as set. Timing, spout out should be 10* BTDC.

cjrpony · Aug 8, 2010

With your spout plug removed, the computer cannot advance the timing. So it may idle fine, but you probably would have drivability issues.

revhead347 · Aug 8, 2010

What a load of ****. They check to see if your car idles with the spout out? What relevance could that possibly have? Why don't they just unplug 3 spark plugs and stuff the air filter full of beaver droppings, and see if it idles then.

The charcoal canister is usually located on the passenger side of the engine bay.

Kurt

Black95GTS · Aug 9, 2010

revhead347 said:
What a load of ****. They check to see if your car idles with the spout out? What relevance could that possibly have? Why don't they just unplug 3 spark plugs and stuff the air filter full of beaver droppings, and see if it idles then.

The charcoal canister is usually located on the passenger side of the engine bay.

Kurt

Agree'd, that is crap. Is that typical procedure in CA?

Adam

hssnpny · Aug 9, 2010

Well, this is my 3rd smog check with the car in it's current configuration, and it's the first time I've seen the spout pulled to check base timing. I don't think it's so much that they are looking for the car to idle, but they need the car to idle well enough that they can get the base timing. The tech is a new guy at the smog check station I've been going to for years, so I suppose he's doing everything by the book.

I still think pulling the spout with the car running confused it somehow. When I go back for a retry, I'll tell him to shut the car down before pulling it.

revhead347 · Aug 9, 2010

It's fine to pull the spout while the car is running. But it is not uncommon to have to give it a little gas to keep it running. Especially if the base timing is off. Try messing with the timing at home. Find a good setting somewhere between 8 and 18 that guarantees the car will run when the spout is pulled. Unless it has to be exactly at 10, which is stock.

Kurt

WhiteCobra95 · Aug 11, 2010

I would bet that he's checking your base timing to make sure that it's set at the factory timing of 10 degrees. Advancing the spark will increase NOx and THC emissions over the stock levels. Where is your distributor set at right now? I would assume that based on the surging, it's already at 14 or 16 degrees, which he's likely to gig you on anyway. Try setting it at 10 degrees, fire up your car, and pull the spout to see what happens. When he pulls Spout, the ECU can only adjust the idle speed through the IAC air flow. When your timing is advanced past 10, the gains on the IAC compensation are probably too big and the P-part of the idle PID control just oscillates (unstable controller calibration). If you can test this and make it work at home by setting the timing at 10, go pass the test, pull into the nearest parking lot afterwards, whip out a wrench and dial your timing back up, and then lay a huge patch in front of the inspection station! =) Good luck!

Black95GTS · Aug 11, 2010

My point is that as long as he is under the established maximums by CA law, it shouldn't matter if his timing is at 50 degrees.

Adam

hssnpny · Aug 12, 2010

I agree with both you guys. I believe they are checking that the base timing is set to factory specs. This ordeal got me reading the Air Resource Board executive order # that's stamped on the blower. It states that the install cannot require the ignition timing to be different than what's called for by the manufacturer.

And like Black95 says, who gives a #*%@ about any of this if the emissions are within spec. All this joy and I get to pay $60 for the pleasure.

I'll verify the timing is set to 10 and take it back for another run.

Thanks guys.

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