Starter Madness

Stewart Ledford · May 27, 2004

HI fellow stangnet MustangII owners,
We need to start a thread on what plagues the C4 automatic V-8 starting system of our Mustang II's. I have purchased 3 bellhousing, 3 flywheels and 5 staters without any change in the terrible grinding at startup. Can any of you come up with solutions or something else I can try?

cobraii351 · May 27, 2004

I've never had any troubles. except with headers cooking starters. I made a heat shield to fix that problem. I use a 157 tooth flywheel and bell. I was using the standard "old style" starter but recently started using the later model PMGR starter. Works great.

Tim

Stewart Ledford · May 27, 2004

cobraii351 said:
I've never had any troubles. except with headers cooking starters. I made a heat shield to fix that problem. I use a 157 tooth flywheel and bell. I was using the standard "old style" starter but recently started using the later model PMGR starter. Works great.

Tim

I am using the correct 141 tooth flywheel bellhousing and converter for Mustang II.
Stewart

Mstng2 · May 27, 2004

Never had a starter problem in 20 years of owning II's perhaps a shim?

Apsychotic · May 27, 2004

Loud starter

My starter is loud also, works fine, but awfully squally when cranking. I never worried about it though.

jshcobra · May 27, 2004

In the past two years, my ghia has eaten more than 6 starters and one ringgear. Then I took a chance and ordered a gear reduction starter from a joint in Texas over ebay. They swore up and down that it would work on a v8 II and since the price was only $65 I took a chance. Absolutely perfect! Quiet.

My theory is the problem may be due to the small diameter of the II flywheel which requires more force to spin it than other cars or II's using the larger 157 tooth flywheel. Not all starters are up to the task. Original ford starters may be ok, but most remanufactured ones are junk. That may explain why the gear reduction starter works so well- it has more torque to spin the smaller flywheel.

I'll look for the company that sold me the gear reduction starter and post it tonight.

zwhitr · May 27, 2004

Stewart Ledford said:
HI fellow stangnet MustangII owners,
We need to start a thread on what plagues the C4 automatic V-8 starting system of our Mustang II's. I have purchased 3 bellhousing, 3 flywheels and 5 staters without any change in the terrible grinding at startup. Can any of you come up with solutions or something else I can try?

stewart it has been done!

sleeper can we resurrect that thread "starter craziness"

Dano grabbed every starter he had and measured the nose cone depth and determined the longer nose was needed.

Others with original equipment have no problems but once you get that rebuilt lifetime from AZ you are in a downward spiral.

2 options get your original one rebuilt yourself

or gear reduction they come with 10 tooth drives which mesh nicely with the 141 tooth flex and its popular Its just a standard ford PMGR (permanant Magnet gear reduction) for around 100 bucks do a search for pmgr ford

plus you get the added saving of weight and more room for headers I'm runnning a modified set of headmans #1 tubs right past the starter no problems.

COBRAIIW · May 27, 2004

Does this help?

Apsychotic · May 28, 2004

Please explain

COBRAIIW said:
Does this help?

Not to sound ignorant, but no. Can you please explain the pic. All I see is several different starters, mostly with Ford cones. Are you saying that a factory Ford starter is correct as an aftermarket isn't? Thanks, Chris

Stewart Ledford · May 28, 2004

Guys Guys Guys

COBRAIIW said:
Does this help?

Hey are you guys always taught to think in reverse? Ok lets cover whats already been done on this situation.
1.) I have previously installed the famous Dano D2 starter cone.
2.) I have also purchased and installed the PMGR starter with 10 tooth drive.
3.) I have installed a "new" flywheel
4.) 3 different bellhousings.

Come on guys think through this and locate something new.

Stewart

innocentfool · May 28, 2004

i had the same problem with my manual tranny in my KC.

the problem? check your motor mounts! mine were worn on the passenger side and caused the grinding

74ProII · May 28, 2004

Are you sure your tranny case isn't cracked? I've seen one c-4, standard bellhousing that had that problem. Usually more common in c-6"s I would double check the starter's teeth engagement on one of your take out 141 tooth flywheel. Wouldn't be the first time that was screwed up by aftermarket companies.

Stewart Ledford · May 28, 2004

74ProII said:
Are you sure your tranny case isn't cracked? I've seen one c-4, standard bellhousing that had that problem. Usually more common in c-6"s I would double check the starter's teeth engagement on one of your take out 141 tooth flywheel. Wouldn't be the first time that was screwed up by aftermarket companies.

The transmission case is in good condition as are the bellhousing and starter mounting holes threads. I have hand rolled the starter drives through the flywheel teeth checking the mesh and it runs along smoothly.
Stewart

jshcobra · May 28, 2004

innocentfool said:
i had the same problem with my manual tranny in my KC.

the problem? check your motor mounts! mine were worn on the passenger side and caused the grinding

I'm confused. How do motor mounts affect the starter? Can you be more specific?

Stewart Ledford: Here's a new thought- since the 141 tooth automatic ringgears are coming from the aftermarket, it's possible that even though they have the correct tooth count and diameter, the pitch may be wrong. In researching ringgears for the manual ringgears I've made, I found that different gears may have the same number of teeth, but different pitch, either 12 or 14 deg. You wouldn't be able to notice this difference by "hand rolling" a starter drive on the gear as it will seem to work fine. The problem is that hand rolling doesn't simulate the significant force of the ringgear tooth resisting the force being exerted by the starter as it spins.

My suspicion is that the autoparts stores that stock the so-called correct automatic flexplates are actually using incorrectly machined ringgears.

Have you tried a good original ford flexplate?

Also, the proper starter cone casting number is either D60x or D7Ox. The D7Ox is a service replacement for the D6Ox. (I'm not sure of the last digit, but someone had posted it here a while back)

zwhitr · May 28, 2004

Stewart Ledford said:
Hey are you guys always taught to think in reverse? Ok lets cover whats already been done on this situation.
1.) I have previously installed the famous Dano D2 starter cone.
2.) I have also purchased and installed the PMGR starter with 10 tooth drive.
3.) I have installed a "new" flywheel
4.) 3 different bellhousings.

Come on guys think through this and locate something new.

Stewart

Hey Stew

Lets not bite the hand that feed us!

You asked for help and we gave you what we know, we have done this topic to death before you came on here.

The things you listed you have never mention before so don't critize us on how we think.

starters go bad (fact of life) the only reason we replace the flexplate is because the starter starts to slip and then chews up the ring gear my money is on the drives themself

my on hundered dollar PMGR investment was the best thing next to my limited-slip I have ever done.

So now Fix it your self or Deal with it

Z-out

LedZ 5.0 · May 28, 2004

Stewart Ledford said:
HI fellow stangnet MustangII owners,
We need to start a thread on what plagues the C4 automatic V-8 starting system of our Mustang II's. I have purchased 3 bellhousing, 3 flywheels and 5 staters without any change in the terrible grinding at startup. Can any of you come up with solutions or something else I can try?

Not trying to insult your intelligence, but do you have the seperator plate installed between the bell and rear engine block? The reason I ask is that this has happened to me with a II I bought a while back. The seperator plate was not reinstalled when the former owner did a motor change. It chewed up the starter drive and damaged a manual ring gear since the drive was placed closer to the flywheel.

Stewart Ledford · May 28, 2004

jshcobra,
I believe you have the correct diagnosis with the aftermarket ring tooth pitch wrong on the flexplates....I am almost certain....I am just having a real difficult time locating a Ford original flexplate......that will be my next major attempt. Thanks for your support guys.
Stewart

jshcobra said:
I'm confused. How do motor mounts affect the starter? Can you be more specific?

Stewart Ledford: Here's a new thought- since the 141 tooth automatic ringgears are coming from the aftermarket, it's possible that even though they have the correct tooth count and diameter, the pitch may be wrong. In researching ringgears for the manual ringgears I've made, I found that different gears may have the same number of teeth, but different pitch, either 12 or 14 deg. You wouldn't be able to notice this difference by "hand rolling" a starter drive on the gear as it will seem to work fine. The problem is that hand rolling doesn't simulate the significant force of the ringgear tooth resisting the force being exerted by the starter as it spins.

My suspicion is that the autoparts stores that stock the so-called correct automatic flexplates are actually using incorrectly machined ringgears.

Have you tried a good original ford flexplate?

Also, the proper starter cone casting number is either D60x or D7Ox. The D7Ox is a service replacement for the D6Ox. (I'm not sure of the last digit, but someone had posted it here a while back)

Stewart Ledford · May 28, 2004

LedZ 5.0
Yeah I agree this could be a possibility. I have the shim plate installed between the bellhousing and the engine block.
Stewart

LedZ 5.0 said:
Not trying to insult your intelligence, but do you have the seperator plate installed between the bell and rear engine block? The reason I ask is that this has happened to me with a II I bought a while back. The seperator plate was not reinstalled when the former owner did a motor change. It chewed up the starter drive and damaged a manual ring gear since the drive was placed closer to the flywheel.

innocentfool · May 28, 2004

jshcobra said:
I'm confused. How do motor mounts affect the starter? Can you be more specific?

sorry i did not have time to explain further, i was running late for work!

anyways the motor mount was worn down so the engine was shifting to the right hand side when starting. shifting enough to push the starter against the cross member and flex it outward away from the ring gear. being an aluminium bellhousing there is apparently enough flex to allow this to happen.

i did not believe it when i was told this by the ford dealership i took the car to, but after replacing the mounts i have not had the problem ever again(four years and counting!!) b

Wart · May 29, 2004

jshcobra said:
Stewart Ledford: Here's a new thought- since the 141 tooth automatic ringgears are coming from the aftermarket, it's possible that even though they have the correct tooth count and diameter, the pitch may be wrong. In researching ringgears for the manual ringgears I've made, I found that different gears may have the same number of teeth, but different pitch, either 12 or 14 deg.

.......

Also, the proper starter cone casting number is either D60x or D7Ox. The D7Ox is a service replacement for the D6Ox. (I'm not sure of the last digit, but someone had posted it here a while back)

The gear pitch opens an interesting thought: Starter remanufacturers could be using a bendix with the wrong pitch. Would explain why someone replaces a starter and picks up the grinding problem.

The part number: The forth position would be a E. The third position being a O tells me it is a common engine part for all model lines. If it were special for the II it would have a Z in the third position.

Starter Madness

Stewart Ledford

cobraii351

Stewart Ledford

Mstng2

Apsychotic

New Member

jshcobra

zwhitr

COBRAIIW

New Member

Apsychotic

New Member

Stewart Ledford

innocentfool

74ProII

Stewart Ledford

jshcobra

zwhitr

LedZ 5.0

now you have my pea brain going in circles

Stewart Ledford

Stewart Ledford

innocentfool

Wart

I'm Mad as HELL and I'M not Gonna Take it ANYMORE!

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