Strut Rods: Global West vs. Street or Track?

[mdjay]

Is there a substantial insurance policy involved?

Welcome back Lino...

Did Jim get a chance to mull over the issue I proposed?

Call me...

Jay

 

[Psydwaze]

Welcome back Lino...

Did Jim get a chance to mull over the issue I proposed?

Call me...

Jay

Thank you, its nice to be out from under my rock. I've been knee deep in part numbers this week and haven't had a chance to get caught up with Jim since the holiday. I'll see if he has any new info tomorrow.

 

[Snail50]

I think the rod-end strut rods are what should have been in the suspension originally. The part is meant to swivel with suspension travel, and to me, something that swivels should be on a joint, not be bending a rubber bushing.

____After becoming "intimately" involved with my front suspension, I agree that the stock setup leaves a lot to be desired__________

I'd go for the Street or Track ones too, they look better. The Globals appear to move only in a single plane, which would require aligning that plane perfectly, but it would never be perfect as the plane of movement changes as the suspension moves. The SoT ones look like they allow movement in every direction except back and forth through the rod, an ideal setup in my eyes; perfect freedom in every dimension you want, and absolutely no freedom where you don't want it.


_________I couldn't tell exactly how the GW units work due to poor-quality images, but the SoTs look like they have a good range of motion_________

Also, the pics (and website) global west has leave a lot to be desired. It doesn't give off a very good professional image, bad pictures, gawdy colours used here and there on the main page, it all adds up. I look at the SoT site, and they have a simple, easy-to-read layout, with BIG, CLEAR pictures, that inspires more confidence in the company and their product.


________I agree: GW's front page is very gaudy and annoying to scroll through while looking for the Mustang section._______

Just my opinions though

 

[Snail50]

BTW, thanks to all for the replies & opinions. Like I said in my response to Route666, I decided to go with aftermarket strut rods after doing a lot of work on my front suspension, which made me notice the inherent problems of the stock strut rod arrangement.

I can appreciate that people work wonders with the stock gear, and my hat is off to them....but I also appreciate advancements in technology which give us modern, more specialized equipment which (IMO) surpasses the original equipment in quality and design.

If my car were a Shelby or something similarly collectible, I would probably use stock components to keep it original; however, I see no need to do this simply out of principle with my "plain-Jane" coupe.

 

[bud4660]

The Globals appear to move only in a single plane, which would require aligning that plane perfectly, but it would never be perfect as the plane of movement changes as the suspension moves.

I went with the G/W because I liked the design. They are indexed where they mount so the plane stays where it should be. This was a concern for me. I have a drag car not a road racer. So I didnt want to worry about that turning when the wheels were off the ground. My lower control arms also use rod ends where they bolt to the frame. I ran the control through the full range of movement when I bolted all this together before I put the spring in to see how it was going to work and act. I can tell you that the bind problem isnt from the strut rods. Its from the upper ball joints. The arm drops so far and the ball joint stops it. This is also before the upper arm comes in contact with the frame too. The lower arm and strut rod tied together had a full range of movement that you would never be able to use because of other things. Now the thing I did see that I dont know how this is going to effect handling. Is as the control arm drops the strut rod swing down pulls the lower arm to the front of the car. However this is not alot, since the upper arm limits movement. But it does move the arm front to rear as it goes through the range. But for what I need the front end to do, this is going to work great on the launch. Its the landing I am worried about.....lol
There are pictures of the car and stuff in the link below. And I have used G/W stuff on the last car and it is top notch stuff.
Thats my .02
Bud

 

[Opentracker]

For whoever posted the pictures of the strut rod mounted with a single bolt between the OEM drilled holes in a stock lower arm. PLEASE USE A DIFFERENT DESIGN. I would not trust the safety of myself, my passengers or anyone else in my path to a 1/2 inch bolt mounted in single shear. I highly suggest finding an alternate set of components or better mounting method.

That was me, and thanks Ronstang. It is just a mock up. I wouldn't even use that bolt, it's the wrong one. I use grade 8 hardware with locking nuts on most of my stuff. These arms are getting 1/2" bolts instead of the stock 7/16 bolts. This photo shows the arm with two bolts in the stock location. The end of the strutt bar gets cut off flush with the side of the arm. I got these strutt tubes from my watts link so they are a bit longer than needed. The rod ends are not the best. Get the best and they will last longer.



I would rather go a bit slower with safe parts, than a bit faster with questionable ones.



The wife on a 2:15 lap around Laguna Seca.

Is there a substantial insurance policy involved?

Not even. She can outdrive a lot of the guys on the track. I'll put her driving skill up against anyone. Our friends have asked her advice on the right line to take around Thunderhill. She knows her way around a race track, engine compartment and suspension too. That is her car. A '65 coup with a Cleveland motor, Toplader 4-speed, 4-wheel discs and a ton of other stuff. It's way fast. She loves taking it to work.


John

 

[Psydwaze]

She knows her way around a race track, engine compartment and suspension too.

That is just too sexy!

Is this what the ad looked like?

WANTED: 1 good woman to spend rest of life with. Must know your way around a racetrack, engine compartment and suspension. Please submit responses by email to [email protected]

Why didn't I think of that.


John D. I presume. Its nice to talk with you again.

I find your Watt's link very interesting. Is that setup currently on the coupe? If so I'd like to take a closer look next time I see you at the track.

 

[Opentracker]

The watts link is on our '66 coup that I got for the wife and she didn't like it. She said it was too hard to steer so we traided. The '66 is more my type of car anyway. It's got the Maier flare kit and some other goodies I make. Not sure if you saw the roller perches , they make a nice change to the way the car drives. I can't A-Ford to buy all this stuff so I have to make it.

My next project is a '65 Ranchero track car. Radiator in the back with a fuel cell and batt., glass front end and doors. I hope to get it in under 2500lbs. I have the body, I need 8 days a week to get it all done.


I'll take some better photos of the watts and put them up.


Nice talking with you too..............small world!


John D.


PS....photos
Watts photo 1 This is the main piece made out of 1 1/2" square stock.

Watts photo 2 The pivot is held in double sheer and rides on a sealed bearing .

Axle mounts I started with AFCO panhard axle mounts and cut them down to fit.

The roll center of the watts is in line with the roll center of the leaf springs to prevent any bind. It has been proven to me that a chassis mounted watts is the way to go. I plan on making one of these for the orange car and my Ranchero project.

 

[Snail50]

sounds like a cool wife.

 

[Route666]

have you read any of his previous posts? he is always cramming his "theories" down peoples throats whether or not they ask for his opinion. if someone asks his opinion because they want to keep the car legal for a certain class or whatever, that's cool. but when the originator of the thread clearly states in the original post "I definitely want some sort of joint where the rod connects to the frame, rather than the current bushing-style setup" then what he is doing is just not acceptable to me and many others on this board, no offense to you route66 and if i do offend you i apologize i really don't mean too.

No offense taken, my point was that he offered an alternative, and if you don't like it, just don't consider it. Although, I didn't see that the first poster did say he wanted bearing not bushing, so saying the bushed one is all he needs is a moot response I suppose.

 

[jmagilto]

I have the street or track Strut Rods

I have the street or track (S/T) strut rods, TCP Uppers, TCP Gen1 Manual Rack, and opentracker roller perches on my 65 coupe. Short of making the strut-rod yourself, the S/T ones are excellent and priced very attractively.

I also don't mind parting w/ my cash when dealing with guys like Bill and Shaun (and John ). These are the guys that are out there pushing the limits of the car. The results of their efforts are simple, elegant, and effetive solutions to some of the common design weaknesses in our cars.

Thanks Guys.
(BTW - if its not immediately obvious - My vote is for the S/T Strut Rods )

 

[63_Fairlane]

I went with the G/W because I liked the design. They are indexed where they mount so the plane stays where it should be. This was a concern for me. I have a drag car not a road racer. So I didnt want to worry about that turning when the wheels were off the ground. My lower control arms also use rod ends where they bolt to the frame. I ran the control through the full range of movement when I bolted all this together before I put the spring in to see how it was going to work and act. I can tell you that the bind problem isnt from the strut rods. Its from the upper ball joints. The arm drops so far and the ball joint stops it. This is also before the upper arm comes in contact with the frame too. The lower arm and strut rod tied together had a full range of movement that you would never be able to use because of other things. Now the thing I did see that I dont know how this is going to effect handling. Is as the control arm drops the strut rod swing down pulls the lower arm to the front of the car. However this is not alot, since the upper arm limits movement. But it does move the arm front to rear as it goes through the range. But for what I need the front end to do, this is going to work great on the launch. Its the landing I am worried about.....lol
There are pictures of the car and stuff in the link below. And I have used G/W stuff on the last car and it is top notch stuff.
Thats my .02
Bud

Install a set of stock bushed arms and a stock strut rod, then check out the bind. Better yet thow some poly bushings in there. Since the strut rods and lower arms pass through different arcs, things get tight very fast. As for geometry, the strut rod or more appropriately the front link does change the caster of the front wheels.

Rod ends pretty much eliminate the the binding issue, yet hold everything in place, much beter than any rubber bushing.

IMHO, the strut rod/link needs a proper joint at the front to allow articulation and prevent slop in the lower control arm.

 

[Hack]

One thing I've never seen addressed regarding strut rods is the location of the swivel point. The kits that I've seen use the stock mount and they appear to move the strut rod swivel point - not sure how far, perhaps an inch or more.

I'm no expert on suspension design, but what I do know is that caster changes on rebound are not a good thing. Ideally, you would want the swivel point to be located so that there is no change in caster through the suspension's travel. Now I understand that when the lower arm is adjusted for proper camber, the ideal strut rod swivel point also moves. The lower arm adjustment isn't a huge range, so I would think someone would know how to tackle this.

Has anyone seen a study on this subject? Where exactly is the best place to locate the strut rod swivel point?

 

[HistoricMustang]

The amount of tech at StangNet continues to amaze me and this thread is proof. I sometimes wish more time could be found by myself to dig into the nuts and bolts.

I make no apologies for my short direct comments and can not really recall getting on someone's case until they decide to get on mine.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

For those interested here is a great shot at Lowes before we did it under the lights. I simply love these things:

 

[Snail50]

THanks to all for your input. I'm probably going to go with the SoTs.

 

[Route666]

One thing I've never seen addressed regarding strut rods is the location of the swivel point. The kits that I've seen use the stock mount and they appear to move the strut rod swivel point - not sure how far, perhaps an inch or more.

I'm no expert on suspension design, but what I do know is that caster changes on rebound are not a good thing. Ideally, you would want the swivel point to be located so that there is no change in caster through the suspension's travel. Now I understand that when the lower arm is adjusted for proper camber, the ideal strut rod swivel point also moves. The lower arm adjustment isn't a huge range, so I would think someone would know how to tackle this.

Has anyone seen a study on this subject? Where exactly is the best place to locate the strut rod swivel point?

That is a good point that I thought about a while ago but forgot about lol. A shorter rod section would introduce more agressive fore-aft movement of the LCA. Also, the arm would be twisted more, as with a smaller movement arc, a movement on the circumference of that arc will effect the angle the arm is rotated more than with a longer arm / bigger circumference.

 

[dodgestang]

Well, I run a stock upper and lower arm with the shelby mod, John's (opentracker) roller perches, and the SorT struts. As a non-expereinced racer I coulod IMMEDIATELY feel a positive difference on the car after installing the strut rods. Was the car running good before with my stock rods...yes...it just felt a whole lot better afterwards.

The car was more 'predictable' to me after the installation. This is not my daily driver, so coming from driving my jacked up dodge with 38 inch tires and my neon commuter during the weeks it was important for me to get the Mustang to handle is a little bit more modern and predictable way to shorten the amount of time it takes from getting in the drivers seat to 'remembering' the characteristics of the car.

The other benefit of the SorT rods was seen at the alignment show. Last alignment was done much faster and got a lot closer to the numbers I rerquested then they were able to get using just shims.

I've know Bill digitially for a number of years now, and the track tested design of the SorT setup, combined with his obvious true love of both Mustangs and Racing is a major selling points that put these on my car. It was an optional upgrade i did, and could be classed as an impulse buy based on looking at them and gaining an understanding of what they did.....any mustang I purchase in the future will have a set on within the first month of ownership now though.

 

[Snail50]

Sounds like they def. made a difference, dodge. I decided to go with new struts after dis-and reassembling my front suspension several times, and in the process saw how my stock struts worked, how the rubber compressed and stretched, which essentially lengthens the strut adjustment and nullifies whatever settings have been dialed in.

I want something that will give me a bind-free, predictable range of motion, without the slop inherent in rubber bushings.

It seems like both GW and SoT will give me the same results, but SoT is a few coins cheaper....

 

[63_Fairlane]

I am glad that someone's butt-o-meter has confirmed my thoughts on the strut rod. Looking at the front end on my currently fender less 65 coupe, it is easy to see that the strut rod bushings are trying to do too many jobs at once. They have to locate the lower arm fore and aft, partially control caster, plus allow a good range of motion. All of that multi-tasking is a bit much to ask of a steel bar with a bit of rubber and a nut on the end.

Note: If you must stick to the stock style bushing due to rules or that "I MUST KEEP MY PONY ORIGINAL" feeling that some folks have... The bushing should be replaced on a regular basis. Otherwise, aligning the suspension will become a nightmare.