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Stumble/Miss under acceleration - Help please

  • Thread starter Thread starter arco777
  • Start date Start date Apr 11, 2012
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arco777

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Apr 11, 2012
#1
  • Apr 11, 2012
  • #1
Searched the web and keep coming up with other people having the same issue but no conclusive fix.

I'm having some trouble with my 90 LX 5.0. Starts and idles fine. Accelerates strong one time, then the next it just sputters and stumbles like a bad fuel pump.

In process of trying to fix it I've thrown the following parts at it.

New 155lph fuel pump, new fuel filter, new O2 sensors, new MAF, new upper intake manifold gaskets, new ACT sensor, new vacuum lines, cleaned grounds, new distributor pickup, new spark plug wires, new fuel injectors. Replaced Evap system lines (was plugged up but fixing system had no effect).

Timing is set at 13* BTDC, fuel pressure is 39psi without vacuum. Mods are just typical bolt ons. Good compression.

The only thing I haven't been able to check are my spark plugs; the headers are BBKs for the GT40P heads so changing plugs is a pain. The plugs are about 6,000 miles old or so. Honestly I doubt it's plugs because the issue is so intermittent.

Fuel pressure regulator is an adjustable type and isn't leaking. EGR passages seem fine. No KOEO codes. No catalytic converters. No vacuum leaks that I can find. The only thing that I know is wrong is there's a baffle loose in the gas tank.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance!
 
A

arco777

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Apr 11, 2012
#2
  • Apr 11, 2012
  • #2
KOER CODES:

94: Thermactor Air Injection system inoperative (left side).
44:Thermactor Air Injection system inoperative (Right side).
13: Cannot control RPM during ER Self-Test [low/high] RPM check.

94/44: My smog pump system is incomplete. Shouldn't cause any problems from what I've read though.
13: Motor has a B cam so idle is set a bit high; target is 800-1000, above the 725 the PCM's looking for so this code doesn't suprise me but shouldn't cause a problem...

UPDATE 2: Checked all vac systems for leaks, nothing major found. Under acceleration it shudders badly and doesn't want to go. Once at higher RPMs it clears up and runs well. I should mention trans is an AOD with a shift kit and low miles. 3000 stall converter. Any chance this hesitation could be a converter issue? It really sounds like the motor is sputtering though.
 

jrichker

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  • Apr 11, 2012
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Does the problem occur more on a warm engine than a cold one?
 
A

arco777

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#4
  • Apr 11, 2012
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jrichker said:
Does the problem occur more on a warm engine than a cold one?
Click to expand...

I would say it's worse warm. Also forgot to mention that the problem gradually got worse over time, not all at once due to a modification.
 

jrichker

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The TFI module mounted on the distributor is usually the culprit for a high speed miss on a warm engine. If the problem does not occur when the engine is cold, the TFI module is definitely suspect. You may need a special socket to remove the TFI module, but most auto parts stores will have one for $5-$7.

Be sure to use plenty of the heat sink grease on the new TFI and clean the old grease off the distributor.

View attachment 151698

See Automotive Tools Specialty | Auto Mechanic & Technician Diagnostic, Testing Equipment | Thexton
 

Gearbanger 101

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#6
  • Apr 11, 2012
  • #6
What condition are the rest of your ignition components in? Wires, plugs, distributor cap & rotor?
 
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arco777

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Apr 11, 2012
#7
  • Apr 11, 2012
  • #7
Wires are new. Cap and rotor are Accel units replaced recently.

TFI module was a thought I had but research seemed to suggest it was either a "does run or doesn't run" failure mode. But I can give it a shot; fortunately they are cheap. Thanks for the input - I'll try to get a new one put on by tomorrow and report back.
 

Blown88GT

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#8
  • Apr 11, 2012
  • #8
New MAF, new injectors: what size, what kind?
New TFI & new PIP? You said new distributor pickup.
 
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arco777

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#9
  • Apr 11, 2012
  • #9
New factory replacement MAF. Had same problem with old MAF.
Injectors are 19lb Explorer injectors from a 96 5.0 with new seals. Had problem with old injectors too.
The PIP is the pickup right? Plugs into the TFI inside the distributor? That's what I replaced. Had problem with old one too.

All the parts I've thrown at the car so far have made it run smoother but I still have this acceleration problem.

Leaving to go pick up a TFI module now.
 

Blown88GT

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#10
  • Apr 11, 2012
  • #10
PIP = Profile Ignition Pickup (the one inside the distributor)
TFI - Thick Film Ignition module (the one outside the distributor, either mounted on it or on the fender well. Coded gray or black depending on type. '90 is gray & mounts to the distributor.
 
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arco777

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Apr 11, 2012
#11
  • Apr 11, 2012
  • #11
Just put on a new TFI. From a cold start, same problem as before. No change at all.

Yes the PIP is new too.

I notice it stumbles and struggles until about 2100RPM, at which point it clears up.
 

jrichker

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Cylinder balance test:

Revised 25 March 2012 to add necessity allowing the KOEO tests to finish before starting the engine and the need for a properly functioning IAB/IAC to run the cylinder balance test.

The computer has a cylinder balance test that helps locate cylinder with low power output. You’ll need to dump the codes out of the computer and make sure that you have the A/C off, clutch depressed to the floor and the transmission in neutral. Fail to do this and you can’t do the engine running dump codes test that allows you to do the cylinder balance test.

Here's the way to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

Be sure to turn off the A/C clutch depressed to the floor, and put the transmission in neutral when dumping the codes. Fail to do this and you will generate a code 67 and not be able to dump the Engine Running codes.


Here's how to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.





If your car is an 86-88 stang, you'll have to use the test lamp or voltmeter method. There is no functional check engine light on the 86-88's except possibly the Cali Mass Air cars.



The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.

89 through 95 cars have a working Check Engine light. Watch it instead of using a test lamp.



The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.


WARNING!!! There is a single dark brown connector with a black/orange wire. It is the 12 volt power to the under the hood light. Do not jumper it to the computer test connector. If you do, you will damage the computer.

What to expect:
You should get a code 11 (two single flashes in succession). This says that the computer's internal workings are OK, and that the wiring to put the computer into diagnostic mode is good. No code 11 and you have some wiring problems. This is crucial: the same wire that provides the ground to dump the codes provides signal ground for the TPS, EGR, ACT and Map/Baro sensors. If it fails, you will have poor performance, economy and drivability problems

Some codes have different answers if the engine is running from the answers that it has when the engine isn't running. It helps a lot to know if you had the engine running when you ran the test.

Dumping the Engine Running codes: The procedure is the same, you start the engine with the test jumper in place. Be sure the A/C is off, clutch depressed to the floor and the transmission is in neutral. You'll get an 11, then a 4 and the engine will speed up to do the EGR test. After the engine speed decreases back to idle, it will dump the engine running codes.

Trouble codes are either 2 digit or 3 digit, there are no cars that use both 2 digit codes and 3 digit codes.

Cylinder balance test

If you have idle or IAC/IAB problems and the engine will not idle on its own without mechanically adjusting the base idle speed above 625-750 RPM, this test will fail with random cylinders pointed out every time it runs. The IAC/IAB must be capable of controlling the engine speed to run in the 1400-1600 RPM range. Playing with the base idle speed by adjusting it upwards will not work, the computer has to be able to control the engine speed using the IAC/IAB.

Warm the car's engine up to normal operating temperature. Use a jumper wire or paper clip to put the computer into test mode. Let it finish the Key On Engine Off (KOEO) code dump. Start the engine and let it go through the normal diagnostic tests, then quickly press the throttle to the floor. Remember to keep the clutch pedal (5 speed) depressed to the floor during the test. The engine RPM should exceed 2500 RPM's for a brief second. The engine RPM's will increase to about 1450-1600 RPM and hold steady. The engine will shut off power to each injector, one at a time. When it has sequenced through all 8 injectors, it will flash 9 for everything OK, or the number of the failing cylinder such as 2 for cylinder #2. Quickly pressing the throttle again up to 2500 RPM’s will cause the test to re-run with smaller qualifying figures.
Do it a third time, and if the same cylinder shows up, the cylinder is weak and isn’t putting out power like it should. See the Chilton’s Shop manual for the complete test procedure


Do a compression test on all the cylinders.
Take special note of any cylinder that shows up as weak in the cylinder balance test. Low compression on one of these cylinders rules out the injectors as being the most likely cause of the problem. Look at cylinders that fail the cylinder balance test but have good compression. These cylinders either have a bad injector, bad spark plug or spark plug wire. Move the wire and then the spark plug to another cylinder and run the cylinder balance test again. If it follows the moved wire or spark plug, you have found the problem. If the same cylinder fails the test again, the injector is bad. If different cylinders fail the cylinder balance test, you have ignition problems or wiring problems in the 10 pin black & white electrical connectors located by the EGR.

How to do a compression test:
Only use a compression tester with a screw in adapter for the spark plug hole. The other type leaks too much to get an accurate reading. Your local auto parts store may have a compression tester to rent. If you do mechanic work on your own car on a regular basis, it would be a good tool to add to your collection.

With the engine warmed up, remove all spark plugs and prop the throttle wide open, crank the engine until it the gage reading stops increasing. On a cold engine, it will be hard to tell what's good & what's not. Some of the recent posts have numbers ranging from 140-170 psi. If the compression is low, squirt some oil in the cylinder and do it again – if it comes up, the rings are worn. There should be no more than 10% difference between cylinders. Use a blow down leak test (puts compressed air inside cylinders) on cylinders that have more than 10% difference.

See the link to my site for details on how to build your own blow down type compression tester.
 
A

arco777

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Apr 11, 2012
#13
  • Apr 11, 2012
  • #13
I did a cylinder balance test a while ago, when the problem popped up but before throwing parts at it. Got a "cylinder 1 weak" three times in a row. Checked cylinder 1's compression and it was 150PSI cold. Already checked the wires and put a new spark plug on that cylinder. No idea why cylinder 1 would show weak. I can run another balance test tomorrow if desired.

Also checked and cleaned the 10-pin connectors.
 

stykthyn

I want to measure mine. It doesn't look that tall.
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#14
  • Apr 11, 2012
  • #14
Bad injector possibly.
 
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arco777

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Apr 11, 2012
#15
  • Apr 11, 2012
  • #15
stykthyn said:
Bad injector possibly.
Click to expand...
It had the same problem when I had factory injectors in it.
 
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arco777

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Apr 13, 2012
#16
  • Apr 13, 2012
  • #16
Bump... Still having the issue, any ideas?
 

jrichker

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#17
  • Apr 14, 2012
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arco777 said:
I did a cylinder balance test a while ago, when the problem popped up but before throwing parts at it. Got a "cylinder 1 weak" three times in a row. Checked cylinder 1's compression and it was 150PSI cold. Already checked the wires and put a new spark plug on that cylinder. No idea why cylinder 1 would show weak. I can run another balance test tomorrow if desired.

Also checked and cleaned the 10-pin connectors.
Click to expand...
A bad injector or injector wiring would cause the cylinder to fail. Use a noid light to check for injector pulse. If the noid light test is good, swap the injector out or move to another cylinder. Do another cylinder balance test and if the problem follows the suspect injector, it is definitely defective..
 
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arco777

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Apr 16, 2012
#18
  • Apr 16, 2012
  • #18
jrichker said:
A bad injector or injector wiring would cause the cylinder to fail. Use a noid light to check for injector pulse. If the noid light test is good, swap the injector out or move to another cylinder. Do another cylinder balance test and if the problem follows the suspect injector, it is definitely defective..
Click to expand...

Checked injector #1 with a noid light and it was good. Then I ran a cylinder balance test twice and both times it came up as Code 90, all cylinders good.

Ran KOER again, same codes as earlier (94/44/13)
 
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arco777

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Apr 16, 2012
#19
  • Apr 16, 2012
  • #19
Tried a junkyard MAP sensor, no improvement.

Update: Tested TPS, it is good.
 
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arco777

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Apr 16, 2012
#20
  • Apr 16, 2012
  • #20
It is fixed!!!

After over a month of throwing parts at it - let this be a caution to anyone who thinks they can spend their way out of a problem!

I have GT40P headers from BBK so on cylinder #4, there is almost no clearance between the plug boot and the header. When I last changed the plug wires, instead of buying a plug wire insulator, I used aluminum tape and wrapped that around the spark plug boot. This caused two arcs, from the wire boot to the head and the block. Yanked the tape off and took it for a spin. Runs like a scalded dog.

I noticed the arcs by watching under the hood at night - I'm told a spray bottle of water helps too.
 
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