Thinking Of Going E85

Modular2v · May 7, 2013

Is it worth it? Car made 451hp and 468tq and I refuse to put 101 in it! Anyone out there running e85? I really don't feel like spending a G on injectors and gt500 pumps if its only going to yield me 30 horse.

bhuff30 · May 7, 2013

In a word, YES, it is worth it. The ron/mon octane rating may be 104, but it behaves more like 110. The cooling effect of the alky makes a big difference on a boosted engine. But of course, it comes down to the tune. If you don't tune for the extra octane, you'll gain little/nothing. So plan to increase the boost level to really take advantage of it.

I know there was one person on here with E85 experience on a 4.6, but I don't remember their name now. I just remember they were making a stupid amount of power (like 800rwhp) and they were somewhere in Texas. Hopefully, they will post up too. Otherwise, you could try searching.

I ran E85 for quite a few years on my 2.3L with pretty good success. I ran 10:1 compression, 20psi of boost (turbo), and a small shot of nitrous (35) as needed. It was good for 12.2's and better than 300hp at the wheels. Keep in mind, this was not a head/cam/intake combo that flowed... it was done making torque around 5000 and I was shifting by 5500. I actually ran a cam from a ford ranger, so it didn't rev, but sure was fun in the mid range. Extrapolating that out to a 4.6L, you'll start with better flow and double the displacement of my 2.3L. I see 600rwhp being a starting point if you have the blower and fuel system to support it.

I have run E85 in my 4.6L before, but it is a basically stock npi. It didn't gain any noticeable power, but I did enjoy the smell. I played with it enough that I fine tuned the fuel tables so it would start and run nicely on a cold start. Hint, it takes quite a bit more enrichment when starting in cold weather.

1fun281 · May 8, 2013

I believe 04sleeper ran e85 i know 98cobra281 is also running e85 on a turbo 2v 4.6 stuff is awesome im in the process right now of converting my car over to it

sneaky98gt · May 8, 2013

It was 04sleeper that did E85 several years ago. I'm sure others did it before him, but he was the first person I remember reading about. IIRC, he gained a good bit over 100 rwhp from the changeover, but that was on a 4-valve with a Whipple pushing a lot of boost.

With a stock head 2-valve (I think I remember that's what your's is) with an Eaton, I'd say 50-75 at most is probably more reasonable. Reason I say that is I don't know how much more air the Eaton can push through those heads before it goes REALLY inefficient; when that happens, it won't matter what kind of fuel or how much timing you run, it's going to be done. I know that 525 rwhp is about all an Eaton 4-valve will make without serious work, and that's with much better flowing heads. So I'm thinking 500ish is going to be the limit of the air that the blower will move through 2-valve heads. And if the airflow is the limit, it won't really matter how much timing you throw at it (i.e. race gas or E85).

If I had your setup and wanted more power on a $1000 budget, I'd port the blower and throw water/meth at it. Porting the blower obviously increases the efficiency, and spraying water/meth actually increases it a bit as well, plus the benefit of running more timing. You'd definitely pick up 25ish rwhp through a port, and easily pick up that much again with the methanol, maybe more depending on how fast you're spinning it.

Speaking of, what pulleys are you running/how much boost? Also, do you know what your air charge temps are? That'd give a pretty good idea as to how much you're leaving on the table through the spark timing.

P.S. If you decided to port the blower, I know a guy local to my area that will do it for a LOT less than any of the big-name companies, and he has lots of cars to prove that his ports perform just as well.

Modular2v · May 8, 2013

sneaky98gt said:
It was 04sleeper that did E85 several years ago. I'm sure others did it before him, but he was the first person I remember reading about. IIRC, he gained a good bit over 100 rwhp from the changeover, but that was on a 4-valve with a Whipple pushing a lot of boost.

With a stock head 2-valve (I think I remember that's what your's is) with an Eaton, I'd say 50-75 at most is probably more reasonable. Reason I say that is I don't know how much more air the Eaton can push through those heads before it goes REALLY inefficient; when that happens, it won't matter what kind of fuel or how much timing you run, it's going to be done. I know that 525 rwhp is about all an Eaton 4-valve will make without serious work, and that's with much better flowing heads. So I'm thinking 500ish is going to be the limit of the air that the blower will move through 2-valve heads. And if the airflow is the limit, it won't really matter how much timing you throw at it (i.e. race gas or E85).

If I had your setup and wanted more power on a $1000 budget, I'd port the blower and throw water/meth at it. Porting the blower obviously increases the efficiency, and spraying water/meth actually increases it a bit as well, plus the benefit of running more timing. You'd definitely pick up 25ish rwhp through a port, and easily pick up that much again with the methanol, maybe more depending on how fast you're spinning it.

Speaking of, what pulleys are you running/how much boost? Also, do you know what your air charge temps are? That'd give a pretty good idea as to how much you're leaving on the table through the spark timing.

P.S. If you decided to port the blower, I know a guy local to my area that will do it for a LOT less than any of the big-name companies, and he has lots of cars to prove that his ports perform just as well.[/quote

Thanks for the replies guys. The blower has a 2.63 pulley on it and I know it is pretty much maxed out as it sits. I live in Oklahoma and we don't really have pump gas higher than 91 octane and my tuner said that's limiting me quite a bit. I use to have a 101 tune on it but never really used it because the stuff costs $8 a gallon I already have a meth kit but haven't had the car tuned for it. The blower is showing 14-15#s of boost on gauge ....it use to run pretty consistently around 15lbs but ever since the blower cams it seems to fluctuate between 14 to 15. I'm assuming that due to the restriction I took off the motor by putting bigger cams in. I plan on using a one of the taps on the tork tech intake to put a temp gauge in so I can measure my air charge temps but I cant currently give you an answer to that other than, Hotter than what I would like it to be I would also like to add that I have 2 E85 stations within a mile from my house.

sneaky98gt · May 9, 2013

Gotcha.

So I'm assuming your IAT sensor is still in the intake tube?

If so, you should change that anyway. If the computer knows the exact temperature of the air going into the cylinders, it can more accurately pull/add timing, which means both a safer tune AND more power (when the temps are cooler). If you spray methanol, that is the ONLY way to do it. If the ECM only knows the temp coming into the blower, you're playing Russian roulette when you add timing to account for methanol, because if something happens and it doesn't spray, kaboom. With the IAT sensor downstream of the blower, it will easily detect a big drop in the normal temperatures it sees (i.e. the methanol is spraying) and add timing. And when the temps are normal, it just keeps the timing curve you have now.

I've got an idea. Port the blower, add methanol, AND convert to E85. I think it'll be interesting to see how far someone can take an Eaton 2-valve. Someone may have done it before, but your numbers are already the best I've seen on an Eaton 2-valve car.

Modular2v · May 10, 2013

My numbers are the best you have seen probably because Im the only one stupid enough to be running the eaton still LOL(with a fully built motor, most guys opt for the kb or whipple). Funny you mention the IAT sensor because I just go through moving it downstream of the blower. It was something I had been meaning to do anyway. The car is back at the tuner now an its coming down to decision making time for the e85. Out of curiosity, how fast do you go through your methanol/wiper fluid/your own mix ? I know the cost is little to none but right now I only have a half gallon tank mounted for the meth and it would be annoying having to stop every 20miles to fill it back up. I guess what I am really asking is how big is you meth tank?

vertigasen · May 10, 2013

Here is how I look at it. Do you ONLY want ~500? If so, do E85 and meth and call it a day. If you want more, ditch the Heaton, and look for a used 2.3. That will give you 550+ potential on 91 pump gas. I am at over 700 on 91 and a fat tune. I use mine as a DD and I don't want to have a dual tune incase I am in the middle of BFE with no E85 stations around. 800 on E85 would be nice, but not worth the hastle.

sneaky98gt · May 10, 2013

Modular2v said:
My numbers are the best you have seen probably because Im the only one stupid enough to be running the eaton still LOL(with a fully built motor, most guys opt for the kb or whipple). Funny you mention the IAT sensor because I just go through moving it downstream of the blower. It was something I had been meaning to do anyway. The car is back at the tuner now an its coming down to decision making time for the e85. Out of curiosity, how fast do you go through your methanol/wiper fluid/your own mix ? I know the cost is little to none but right now I only have a half gallon tank mounted for the meth and it would be annoying having to stop every 20miles to fill it back up. I guess what I am really asking is how big is you meth tank?

I've got a 3 gallon tank and I might go through one tank every month. That's with a LOT of driving. I'd say average is 2ish gallons a month. On my last track trip, I started with a level-full tank, and when I left, I didn't even come close to putting a whole gallon of mix back in. That was on around 15 1/4 mile passes. And I'm spraying a LOT of fluid (14 gallons per hour). On an intercooled car, you shouldn't have to spray anywhere near that. 7 GPH would probably be a plenty.

And it's just simple math. Half gallon tank / 7 GPH nozzle (guestimate) = 4.3 minutes of continuous spraying. Figure 12 seconds per 1/4 mile pass, and that's 21 1/4 passes per tank. Considering most street pulls are a lot less than a 1/4 mile, that's a solid 30-40 pulls on the street.

One problem that I have found is that if I run it completely dry, it doesn't like to bleed the air back out entirely (it gets stuck at the check valve near the nozzle). But I've got the check valve in an easy-to-get-to location, and it only takes a minute to take it off and let the fluid run through it.

Modular2v · May 11, 2013

I put the check valve in an easy location just for that ! I think ill do the meth. Thanks for the advice. I would hate to be stuck in bfe and not have e85. The heaton will be gone before the yrs end btw

98COBRA281 · May 12, 2013

yup! S*#T's awesome! it will not detonate! lol

Thinking Of Going E85

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