Titanium pistons and push rods?

SuperDust22 · Oct 17, 2004

What company's sell them. Who makes the strongest pistons? I work at a CNC shop. I am going to try to write a program to make some pistons and push rods. I am leaning towards using titanium. I will test the program with cheap steel and see how it comes out. I have been working with Titanium a lot lately and that stuff is amazing. Strong as hell and doesn't weight crap. I haven't priced the stock to much yet. I have talked to my boss a little and he said he can buy me some for a good price. So help me out here guys.

Dustin

SlowGT · Oct 18, 2004

Subscribing: Just curious to know how your CNC program turns out. What's the expansion rate of Ti? What kind of rings will you need for this?

mo_dingo · Oct 18, 2004

superdust22 said:
What company's sell them. Who makes the strongest pistons? I work at a CNC shop. I am going to try to write a program to make some pistons and push rods. I am leaning towards using titanium. I will test the program with cheap steel and see how it comes out. I have been working with Titanium a lot lately and that stuff is amazing. Strong as hell and doesn't weight crap. I haven't priced the stock to much yet. I have talked to my boss a little and he said he can buy me some for a good price. So help me out here guys.

Dustin

If you make the rest of the rotating assembly & block out of titanium, it might work. But I would think that if only the pistons were titanium, then the pistons will wear out much faster because the wrist pins & cylinder sleeves are an iron-based composition (iron is more dense than titanium).

Just for example, if you take a sapphire and rub it against a diamond, even though the corundum family is pretty tough, the diamonds' crystal structure is much more dense, and will result in a scratched sapphire. They actually take diamond dust, and use it to make cutting wheels for cutting stones.

So, if you take a much denser element and rub it against a less dense element, the likely end result will be the less dense element wearing out much faster than normal.

This is just my opinion. Don't take it as the final word. Some of the more serious engine builders might be able to comment from past experience.

Also, I don't know the thermal properties of titanium. It may not be able to take the constant heat cycles that an engine component is subject to on a daily basis. I do know they use titanium to make the shells on the newer stealth bombers (F-117 specifically); and if a panel breaks, they just can't weld a new piece in like you would with steel. It's a much more complicated process.
Scott

Joes95GT · Oct 18, 2004

There's much more to a piston than the dome and valve reliefs. You need to study up on things like skirt lengths, interference fits and clearances, thermal properties of metals and their interaction with other metals, ring groove gapping, compression heights, piston structure, etc.

Joe

Rick 91GT · Oct 18, 2004

Nobody currently makes a titanium piston, howevert I am sure someone has made pushrods. Most of the high dollar pushrods are multiple pieces put together, taper, etc...

A set of Titanium connecting rods will run you around $5000+

go-stang5.0 · Oct 18, 2004

YEs pushrods and connecting rods can be made out of Ti...I know the 911 gt3 and 360 modena use Ti connecting rods but I dunno of anyone with Ti pistons. There has to be a good reason for this....like everyone said the expansion properties etc.

slo95.0 · Oct 18, 2004

screw titanium, my new forged adamantium pistons and rods are gunna be much stronger

Zero Signal · Oct 18, 2004

Ti costs like $4/pound and considering you would need about 500lbs of stock to cut it then given x number of tries since you know it wouldn't work the first few times, you'd be looking at mucho $$$. There's a reason why it's not commonly used.

WHITE94COBRA · Oct 18, 2004

THE EXPANSION RATE OF TI HIGHER THAN IRON HOWEVER IT TAKES MORE HEAT FOR IT TO EXPAND, SO IM SURE IT WOULD BE A FINE LINE BETWEEN KEEPING IT COOL AND AT A GOOD OPERATING TEMP. AND IT IS ULTRA LITE, AND STRONG AS HELL.

SuperDust22 · Oct 18, 2004

Well, I priced everything out at work today. Just to damn much one just one set. Ti shouldn't have a high expansion rate if it can be sent to heat treat and be made a little stronger. The reason I even got the idea is bc, one I have a CNC at my hands, two there has been a lot of local guys making pistons, pushrods, etc., out of some real exotic metal. I love working with Ti. but after pricing things it would cost me a tons just to make one set. I would have to make like 50 just to get the cost down. Also the CNC program would take me awhile. So I am going to saying screw it. I will just go buy a set of JE. Thanks for the input guys.

Dustin

Rick 91GT · Oct 18, 2004

Dustin, look at the Probe SRS series pistons, they will be cheaper then a SRP (off the shelf JE) and from what I know are made on better equipment and my first hand expierence can back that up.

The Probes are a nice piece

SuperDust22 · Oct 19, 2004

Rick 91GT said:
Dustin, look at the Probe SRS series pistons, they will be cheaper then a SRP (off the shelf JE) and from what I know are made on better equipment and my first hand expierence can back that up.

The Probes are a nice piece

All right thanks. I haven't really started pricing or looking yet. I hope to start in the next few weeks. I am trying to make a plan/goals for the car. I am going with a blower so the bottom end is going to have to be tough. What do you recommend for rods and cranks? I always like to hear peoples inputs.

Dustin

Rick 91GT · Oct 19, 2004

If you are using a stock block a cast assembly really should meet your needs, but if you are really going to try to make a lot of power or possible trasnfer the parts to a aftermaket block, 4340 is the way to go.

I like the SCAT cast stuff over the Eagel however both are fine. In the 4340 I like the SCAT machining a little better but so far I have no had a single complaint or issue with the newer Eagel internal balance cranks. (You can internal balance them for the same price as a 28oz, since they are made heavy, save a good bit of money since you don't need Mallory)

RyClef331 · Oct 19, 2004

mo_dingo said:
If you make the rest of the rotating assembly & block out of titanium, it might work. But I would think that if only the pistons were titanium, then the pistons will wear out much faster because the wrist pins & cylinder sleeves are an iron-based composition (iron is more dense than titanium).

Just for example, if you take a sapphire and rub it against a diamond, even though the corundum family is pretty tough, the diamonds' crystal structure is much more dense, and will result in a scratched sapphire. They actually take diamond dust, and use it to make cutting wheels for cutting stones.

So, if you take a much denser element and rub it against a less dense element, the likely end result will be the less dense element wearing out much faster than normal.

This is just my opinion. Don't take it as the final word. Some of the more serious engine builders might be able to comment from past experience.

Also, I don't know the thermal properties of titanium. It may not be able to take the constant heat cycles that an engine component is subject to on a daily basis. I do know they use titanium to make the shells on the newer stealth bombers (F-117 specifically); and if a panel breaks, they just can't weld a new piece in like you would with steel. It's a much more complicated process.
Scott

Uhhh....you do realize that the actual piston itself doesn't "rub" or "slide" against the cylinder wall right? Apparently not...ever heard of piston rings?

Rootus · Oct 19, 2004

RyClef331 said:
Uhhh....you do realize that the actual piston itself doesn't "rub" or "slide" against the cylinder wall right? Apparently not...ever heard of piston rings?

And what do you think the piston rings are for, pray tell? The piston does not ride on the rings, it rides on the very thin layer of oil separating it from the cylinder wall. The rings seal combustion gasses into the chamber, and oil into the crankcase.

My engine slaps the pistons against the cylinder wall when cold. And Ford coated the pistons with teflon, probably because of this. So apparently the experts think that the friction properties of the piston surface DO matter...

Dave

Joes95GT · Oct 19, 2004

Dave, it's nice to hear from you. You haven't been post whoring in a while....

Dustin, do take Rick's advice. Probe, IMO, are the best pistons for 99% of all high performance application. I don't buy into those expensive piston guys...

Joe

baglock1 · Oct 20, 2004

Rootus said:
My engine slaps the pistons against the cylinder wall when cold. And Ford coated the pistons with teflon, probably because of this. So apparently the experts think that the friction properties of the piston surface DO matter...

AND one of the major problems of working with Titanium in situations where it contacts steel (regardless of the thermal environment) is it has a very nasty tendency to gall. Instead of replacing oil every 3000 miles, youd be swapping blocks. How'd that be? Of course, that's assuming that you were even able to get them machined without busting your budget in new dies (machining Ti is VERY difficult).

Ti also is extremely sensitive to surface imperfections (notching). Expect fatigue cracking to occur at the ring lands, the wrist pin bores, the skirts, and everywhere else where proper fillet radius's are not used or there is a sharp corner.

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