Toploader or C4-C6 ?

Stangninjak · Jul 3, 2006

Well I am now read to take my car out for some track time in 1/4. Well the Toploader shifter is being a bear to shift under load. 1st to second is dam near impossible to do under speed with the revs at 5500. Is there a short shifter style for the Top loader ? Also I noticed it sems to be leaking ger oil as well. Is this a culprit of the shifting ?

On another note, would it be better to put in a C4 with a BM ripper ? With that, missing gears will not be a problem, but can a C4 stand up to some abuse ? Mind you this is not going to be a track car, but a take it to the track sometimes car.

Any advice ? See engine mods in sig.

302 coupe · Jul 3, 2006

C4's can take a beating and are pretty fun with the right converter and shift kit. Toploaders are cool too though. Comes down to personal preference. As far as track performance, expect slightly better ET's with an auto, and slightly better MPH with a toploader.

I love my C4, but if I were you I'd freshen up the toploader and let 'er rip.

D.Hearne · Jul 3, 2006

Rebuild the Toploader, it will handle ANYTHING you can throw at it. Not even a built C-4 will. I'm running an unrebuilt 38 year old Toploader in my 89 Ranger behind a V8. Yours is hard to shift from 1st to 2nd due to worn out blocker rings. A $150 rebuild will fix that. You can rebuild it yourself, no special tools needed other than maybe a bearing puller, not even that depending on the clearance between the shaft and bearings. David Kee includes detailed instructions with the kits he sells. Go to www.4speedtoploaders.com . The only short throw shifters for Toploaders, will demand floor surgery in a Classic Stang. I run a Hurst Competition plus in my Ranger. Practice makes perfect with it. I'm more comfortable shifting it than the short shifter in my 06 Stang.

Dark Knight · Jul 3, 2006

Shifting probs might also be from the linkage flexing or clutch itself. I used to bend the rod that goes from the z-bar to the clutch fork all the time. Ended up making one from threaded rod and putting a sleeve over it. Also had probs with a full metalic race clutch not disengaging all the way, went to a more street freindly clutch and had no probs.

Stangninjak · Jul 3, 2006

Hey thanx for the Info. I will look into these things posted here. Even with the shifter acting up, I can still do pretty well. Maybe what the ol toploader needs is a refresh. I'll do some research and get to it.

Another question..should I replace that 3 finger clutch plate ? Would a newer one fit in there ?

washMO66 · Jul 3, 2006

D.Hearne said:
Rebuild the Toploader, it will handle ANYTHING you can throw at it. Not even a built C-4 will..

A built C-4 will handle 1000HP..... Several manufactures offer lifetime warranty's on them up to that HP as well. My car has had the same built C4 for 4 years with three of those years racing at the track on slicks and it has not had any problems....... and my engine is no slouch.......

Toploaders are bad ass and fun but you will not be able to match the C-4 for consistancy and ET no matter how well you can drive a three pedal car....

D.Hearne · Jul 3, 2006

I've rebuilt 2 Toploaders, they're not hard, just takes time and patience and a clean work space to lay everything out. Trickiest part is pulling and installing the shifter rail detents. Don't know if a diaphram pressure plate will work, I guess they should you may need a different length adjuster rod if anything. DarkKnight's right about the linkage flexing, but with your problem in 1st to 2nd only, sounds like blocker rings or shifter. Another trick to installing the trans back into the bell is to use two cut off long small block head bolts or 6" long x 7/16NC bolts with their heads removed. Screw these into the two top holes in the bell, lift the trans up, align it onto the studs and slide her in the hole.

D.Hearne · Jul 3, 2006

washMO66 said:
A built C-4 will handle 1000HP..... Several manufactures offer lifetime warranty's on them up to that HP as well.

BUT.......... Even that built C-4 won't last as long as a stock small block Toploader, which he already has. How much is that built C-4 ? Plus the added cost of oil changes, oil coolers, shifter? And no matter what the warantee is on the C-4, the mfg. isn't going to be there to pull and reinstall it for you. And you don't have to worry about stall converters, cam choice or anyother parts choice you need with an auto. Invest in a quality clutch to begin with and you're done with it for a long time, far longer and less maintenence than any auto. Learn and practice with a stick and they're just as consistent as an auto. He's way ahead of the game with his Toploader.

washMO66 · Jul 3, 2006

agreed on the manual to auto maintenence and durability, I just wanted to point out that there are good slushboxes that will hold up to lots of abuse as I am registered automatic abuser.......

different strokes for different folks......

D.Hearne · Jul 3, 2006

washMO66 said:
agreed on the manual to auto maintenence and durability, I just wanted to point out that there are good slushboxes that will hold up to lots of abuse as I am registered automatic abuser.......

different strokes for different folks......

I hear you there, pardon me if I stepped on your toes. Just that I'm predjudiced toward Toploaders and other rmanual transmissions. I'll never own another C-4. Everyone I ever had, left me on the road side looking for a tow. He's got a minor problem with his toploader that can be fixed for less than $200, and even adding in a quality clutch and pressure plate, still will not add up to $500. That built C-4 and all the other parts to make it work, will set him back at least double the $500.

dennis112 · Jul 3, 2006

Yes it sounds like your might toploader needs a rebuild. You probably have bad blocking rings or the sycronizer teeth are bad on the gears.

Toploaders are very easy to rebuild, if you have the right tools and equipment. Although (as mentioned by D. Hearne) no real special tools are needed for a down and dirty rebuild, I recommend a master rebuild kit, with tools, from Mark at http: http://toploaderheaven.com/

(I know that David Kee is also one of the best in the business so I am certainly not knocking his product and service.)

With Mark's kit you get the complete rebuild kit with blocking rings, bearings, gaskets, C clips and other small parts. The tool kit includes several inexpensive items that make the rebuild easy. The best part of this kit is the CD that Mark details a complete rebuild, including tips, using the tools, 100's of pictures of the various parts and how they go together in a toploader. I printed out the manual and use it with every rebuild I do because it keeps me from making little time consuming mistakes.

Mark is also just a phone call away anytime during the rebuild process, 7 days a week. He is a super guy to deal with. Don't let the simpleness of his web site full you, he knows what he is doing.

65ShelbyClone · Jul 3, 2006

D.Hearne said:
Just that I'm predjudiced toward Toploaders and other rmanual transmissions.

Glad I'm not the only one around here. My '68 was a C4 car and I got it with the driveline removed(but included w/car). I didn't event try to put the C4 back in; just straight to a Toploader and Comp Plus. My '65 notch had a Topoader, my '89 GT had a T5, and my SVO has one too(well, thats all they came with).

Stangninjak said:
Mind you this is not going to be a track car, but a take it to the track sometimes car.

In that case it's far from worth the trouble to switch. The Ford service manuals have instructions for rebuilding Toploaders and David Kee's site has them for download. Dan Williams also specializes in Toploaders, but his site isn't nearly as comprehensive as Kee's.

302 coupe · Jul 3, 2006

well, if we're gonna get into rebuild costs etc, they're still dead even. You can get a nice C4 rebuild kit with premium steels and frictions, all the seals, thrusts, etc for about $150. Throw in a shift kit for $40, and a decent converter for around $250-300. I can just about guarantee a C4 is easier to rebuild than a toploader, most people are just afraid to tear into a auto trans. And like washMO66 said, at the track, a 4 speed will never have the consistency of an auto, unless we're talking pro drivers and clutchless trannies, aka pro stockers.

With that being said, since the person in question already has a toploader, I see no need for him to swap. Unless he wants to get into bracket racing, which was my reason for switching back to a C4. Though I will say, its alot easier to haul ass away from redlight with a 3500 stalled auto, traction is much more controllable.

D.Hearne · Jul 3, 2006

But after the C-4 rebuild, it still won't handle the torque the Toploader will. You'll have to get into thousand dollar race units for that.

Gud T.B. Blown · Jul 3, 2006

Stangninjak said:
Hey thanx for the Info. I will look into these things posted here. Even with the shifter acting up, I can still do pretty well. Maybe what the ol toploader needs is a refresh. I'll do some research and get to it.

Another question..should I replace that 3 finger clutch plate ? Would a newer one fit in there ?

i'm currently running a centerforce diaphram pressure plate in my car without any problems. you will have do two things before you can though. first, you have to get your pressure plate machined slightly (centerforce provides a template for the machine shop) and you have to remove the clutch pedal helper spring above the clutch pedal. i've used the 3 finger clutches before and i'll never go back.

302 coupe · Jul 3, 2006

D.Hearne said:
But after the C-4 rebuild, it still won't handle the torque the Toploader will. You'll have to get into thousand dollar race units for that.

Whatever you say boss.

70MachI · Jul 3, 2006

Pushrod power: Can you give me some more information about the pressure plate you used and anything else you could tell me.

sorry for the off topic reply.

Toploader or C4-C6 ?

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