Torque Management?

FL2005GT · Dec 21, 2005

I sometimes see comments about a custom tune getting rid of the new Mustang's "torque management" limitations.

With the factory tune, does the computer control the engine to limit low RPM torque, or something? Even with traction control off? Is this in autos only, or also manuals?

Also, does anyone have proof of this?

Thanks!

bigcat · Dec 21, 2005

the stock computer cuts the throttle if there is too much torque going through the driveline. ford wants to advertise 300 horses, but they dont want to warranty broken parts. the easy fix for them is to limit the amount of torque you have access to at any given time.

FL2005GT · Dec 21, 2005

Makes sense, just haven't seen any professional tuning company say they know about this or can disable it. But I haven't looked that hard, just now starting to consider a tune.

The reason I'm interested in this is that my 2000 GT manual, completely stock except for Flowmasters and 3.73 gears, would light up the softer rear tires if I stomped it in first during a slow roll. My 2005 manual with 3.55's (not that huge a gearing difference) hooks up and takes off well with a minimum of wheelspin under the same scenario. Not spinning the tires = good, sure, but it seems like it should light them up more in 1st then it does. Just doesn't FEEL like it's giving WOT, even with TC off.

bigcat · Dec 21, 2005

you ever notice that if you floor it it seems slow for about 1-2 sec., then takes off like a bat out of hell? the drive-by-wire kills us with the stock tune.

FL2005GT · Dec 21, 2005

Yep, that's exactly what it's like. This isn't a problem when launching (raise the revs and slip the clutch a bit and it'll light the tires nicely) or shifting, just getting on it in the gear you're in. And it's not the engine bogging. It really does feel like they programmed to not allow absolute WOT if you floor it, but made throttle response progressive. Might very well be a nanny to protect the drivetrain.

Siggy33 · Dec 21, 2005

bigcat said:
the stock computer cuts the throttle if there is too much torque going through the driveline. ford wants to advertise 300 horses, but they dont want to warranty broken parts. the easy fix for them is to limit the amount of torque you have access to at any given time.

So wait, let me get this straight: Ford is limiting the amount of torque that goes through the driveline so as to save things like trannies, clutches, and rear ends. So is this an absolute maximum amount of torque per RPM that the computer is programmmed not exceed? If so, then how does larger and stickier tires help in the 1/4 mile?

bigcat · Dec 21, 2005

i would have to let someone else give the answer on the specifics. someone with more knowledge on the actual tune. the information i have posted came from my local tuner, as well as some other posts i have read that confirmed the statements.

FL2005GT · Dec 21, 2005

Just a guess on my part, Siggy. I'm looking for verification of it myself. But I have seen several posts about "Torque Management" to control torque loads at different RPM's. Other car manufacturers use it, especially with automatics. Mercedes uses it to limit torque output on their insane, twin turbo V-12's.

Also, again, I don't think it's a constant control. It SEEMS as though, if the throttle by wire system detects a "throttle request" that would produce a sudden snap of torque, it doesn't allow it, and not necessarily in the smoothest fashion. This could be further evidenced by the "bucking" some people experience when they stomp the go-pedal, especially at a high-RPM downshift to 2nd or 3rd gear.

Or, I could be full of crap.

Dyoct · Dec 22, 2005

You're not full of crap, I've heard about this and experienced myself. Without TC, say if you're on the freeway and do a downshift to third I've experienced a lag in acceleration, or a tire barking gearchange. Even getting on it in first gear at a roll, exactly like mentioned, you kinda take off without lighting up the tires, good for traction, just feeling kinda cheated. I don't have any part of R&D but from what I've heard, there were measures programmed to keep us out of a trouble a bit, even with TC disabled.

manystangs · Dec 22, 2005

When my Tuner did my program, I watched him turn it off. In the software it showed a 1 next to torque management and he made it a Zero. If I remember correctly.
Michael

Siggy33 · Dec 22, 2005

FL2005GT said:
Just a guess on my part, Siggy. I'm looking for verification of it myself. But I have seen several posts about "Torque Management" to control torque loads at different RPM's. Other car manufacturers use it, especially with automatics. Mercedes uses it to limit torque output on their insane, twin turbo V-12's.

Also, again, I don't think it's a constant control. It SEEMS as though, if the throttle by wire system detects a "throttle request" that would produce a sudden snap of torque, it doesn't allow it, and not necessarily in the smoothest fashion. This could be further evidenced by the "bucking" some people experience when they stomp the go-pedal, especially at a high-RPM downshift to 2nd or 3rd gear.

Or, I could be full of crap.

Good explanation FL2005GT, yours too Dyoct. I guess I'll have to start researching this also and try and get a concrete answer.

On another note, I agree w/ Dyoct, even though my car has not been delivered yet and I haven't even driven it, I already feel cheated. I'm a little miffed about the fact that even w/ TC off, there are still little electronic nannies slapping my wrist when I want to do something the car considers "unsafe." Since when do cars have self-preservation instincts?

FL2005GT · Dec 22, 2005

I can't say that I feel cheated, because when I do go for a balls-out standing start, this Mustang is the easiest to launch with controlled wheel spin, and consistently, of any factory tuned Stang I've driven. And if you do want to light up the tires, upping the revs and playing with the clutch will let you do plenty of that.

BUT, I also don't like, in principle, the idea of electronic nannies limiting things for me without my OK. When I turn off TC, I want as much power to the wheels as the engine is capable of making, with ME controlling the traction with my right foot. Otherwise, it takes away from the fun factor a bit.

Don't worry Siggy, you get a lot of bang for the buck. You'll love it. I've seen a bunch of posts that say tuning can make a huge difference in throttle response, too, if you're willing to go that route.

RIO5.0 · Dec 24, 2005

Couldn't help thinking this sounds like the same BS they pulled on the 95's...They put in the "tip in retard" on the timing...you tromp on it and it retards the timing like 15 deg's whenever it feels the pedal going to WOT...bastards...
They must be trying to play it safe on the warranty issues again...crapola

Mossberg · Dec 25, 2005

If you are ford, it's smart business sense. Less warranty claims = more profit.

steelwindmachin · Dec 25, 2005

Torque Management works in several ways. In a drive-by-wire car like the Mustang is soffles throttle response to minimize drive-line shock. It can also retard timing to prevent the engine from detonating further if a lean condition is detected (especially evident when going to a forced induction setup).

Even if you physically turn off Torque Management with a provided in-car button, the programming isn't totally bypassed.

The only way around it is for 3rd party programming to shut it off.

When I worked for a shop, we saw impressive response to TM elimination in the new GTO. With a shift-kit, higher stall converter, PCM reprogramming, cat-back exhaust, intake kit and drag radials we got a auto GTO to go from bone stock runs of 14.2 at about 98mph to 13.1s at around 105mph.

The car's driveability was more crisp, responsive nd aggressive if called for. The stock setup was a dog in comparison.

I'd expect the same results with the Mustang.

FL2005GT · Dec 26, 2005

Does anyone know if any of the hand held reprogrammers for the S-197 allow torque management/throttle response adjustment for manuals and autos?

steelwindmachin · Dec 26, 2005

to my knowledge there isn't any end-user programmer that allows you to modify the TM algorithms yourself. I think the most that the existing programmers do is adjust, refine or switch off TM under certain throttle positions or driving conditions.

There are so many variables that can initiate a TM command. Mostly throttle position, whether or not ny detonation is detected, among other things. It's hard to eliminate all of the TM because it can be laced into so much of the code.

It appears that the existing programmers do increase throttle responsiveness, and maybe do tone down the TM, but I don't know how much more it does aside from adjusting the fuel/spark curves and for the autos, the trans line pressure (if that's adjustable through the computer).

FL2005GT · Dec 26, 2005

OK, thanks for help. I'm going to have to talk to a couple local tuner shops to see what they can do, too.

manystangs · Dec 27, 2005

steelwindmachin said:
Torque Management works in several ways. In a drive-by-wire car like the Mustang is soffles throttle response to minimize drive-line shock. It can also retard timing to prevent the engine from detonating further if a lean condition is detected (especially evident when going to a forced induction setup).

Even if you physically turn off Torque Management with a provided in-car button, the programming isn't totally bypassed.

The only way around it is for 3rd party programming to shut it off.

When I worked for a shop, we saw impressive response to TM elimination in the new GTO. With a shift-kit, higher stall converter, PCM reprogramming, cat-back exhaust, intake kit and drag radials we got a auto GTO to go from bone stock runs of 14.2 at about 98mph to 13.1s at around 105mph.

The car's driveability was more crisp, responsive nd aggressive if called for. The stock setup was a dog in comparison.

I'd expect the same results with the Mustang.

Don't confuse Traction Control with Torque Management. Torque Management can be turned off by a Tuner. It is not the button on the dash
Michael

FL2005GT · Dec 27, 2005

Yep, that's what I'm looking for: Either a local tuner shop or a hand-held tuner that can turn off any Torque Management that's still active when Traction Control is off. If it's active when TC is on, that's fine.

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