Tremec TKO

skywalker · Apr 28, 2004

ron: what I was saying is my angle iisn't off, nothing is rubbing, it went in with space to spare.

Ronstang · Apr 28, 2004

skywalker said:
ron: what I was saying is my angle iisn't off, nothing is rubbing, it went in with space to spare.

It's not rubbing because you used a commercially available crossmember which is designed to make it go in the car without rubbing. Have you measured your drivetrain angle? Is it 3 degrees? If not then it is not the correct factory designed angle....that is my only point, even though it fits in the car.

SnakeStang65 · Apr 29, 2004

I am not trying to cast dispersions on what anyone has done, but I have to agree with Ronstang. He is correct on the issue of engine and transmission angle. I am not saying that it will not work, but why would you want to take such a chance on something like this.

In the past, I have tried to inform people of the issues of installing a Tremec in the 66 thru 68 mustangs, and have been attacked by certain members here saying that I was wrong. Just the same as I have witnessed with Ronstang. Honestly, it is an open forum, and I think that people have the right to know what they are getting into before attempting to install a Tremec or even a T-5. It is your car, and you have the right to know what it takes to get the job done right. The way some people respond and get so defensive about their actions, just makes one question why anyone would believe anything that they say. You might even think that they were being paid by some of the companies that make these "conversion" parts.

In short, we are here to inform, not to determine right or wrong. It is your car, make it the way you want it, and enjoy. Don't come whining when it does not work.

John

3spd on floor · Apr 29, 2004

I built my own crossmember for a T5 install, and i designed it to keep the tailshaft of the tranny in exactly the same place. I did not have to notch the tunnels built in support. I did have to clearance the shifter hole ever so slightly, as in less than a quarter inch of material removed to let the shifter operate freely.

I am fairly confident that my driveline angle did not change, based on the fact that my cooling fan doesnt hit the fan shroud, and it was a very tight fit before. If the motor tilted back at all it would hit. However, i would like to know for sure that my driveline angle is still at 3 degrees, how would i go about doing this.

ShannonW · Apr 29, 2004

The install of a TKO in my 67 FB had the angle of the engine so radically altered, the fan blades extended ¾” above the top of the fan shroud. That was with the TKO pressed solidly against the tunnel with a floor jack.

I took advice from several forums as well as a couple of vendors that the swap was pretty much a bolt- in proposition, it’s been far from that. I don’t know how much my car may differ from other 67/68’s out there (mine still has the original floor/tunnel) but be prepared for some engineering to get a TKO to fit in one of these cars.

Hack · Apr 29, 2004

3spd on floor said:
I built my own crossmember for a T5 install, and i designed it to keep the tailshaft of the tranny in exactly the same place. I did not have to notch the tunnels built in support. I did have to clearance the shifter hole ever so slightly, as in less than a quarter inch of material removed to let the shifter operate freely.

I am fairly confident that my driveline angle did not change, based on the fact that my cooling fan doesnt hit the fan shroud, and it was a very tight fit before. If the motor tilted back at all it would hit. However, i would like to know for sure that my driveline angle is still at 3 degrees, how would i go about doing this.

It's described in this thread, a few posts up.

69'Elvira · Apr 29, 2004

wickedmach1 said:
The question was installing the Tremec in a 69 mustang. I hear the earlier models were more difficult to install the T-5 and Tremec. Let's hear from the 69 and 70 owners who had done this mod and maybe they can shed some light.

Guys,
For the 69/70 Tremec 3550. TKO, TKO 500, TKO 600 is direct swapt and will fit original bellhousing from toploader. Only mod needed is a new trans mount, spacer and depends what you have in rear, possibly(depends on tranny choice) u-joints.
We do have several guys in Dallas with Tremec in their 69.
I'm fixing to put TKO 500 in Elvira shortly. Planomustang on this board has in T-3550 in his 69.

skywalker · Apr 29, 2004

I'll not disagree that the tremec will alter drive angle. It not only does, but it drastically does requiring tunnel modification. The T-5...I'm sorry but I as far as I can tell (and I'm only an electrical/computer-engineer and a helicopter mechanic, so, take my word for a grain of salt) if there has been any change in drive angle it is VERY VERY VERY slight. Slight enough to not make any difference. In fact, vibrations in my car have been REDUCED since I put my T-5 in place of my C-4. Drastically reduced in fact.

This is why I brought up the richmond 6-spd. There is a verison of it which IIRC is a drop in replacement for the T-5. The richmond is a much stronger tranny (from what I am told) and would go in with basically no modification.

Pakrat · Apr 29, 2004

This is probably a foolish question, but I am learning alot here and plan to swap the 3spd out of my 69' some day also, so I am going to ask. Just because the cars left the factory that way, do we know for sure that 3 degrees is in fact the optimal angle and that the cars weren't just made that way for any other number of reasons. I don't claim to understand the potential hazard lying before you with a difference of a few degrees, but I do know for sure that Ford did alot of screwy things based on non technical decisions. Let's face it, many of the stock settings are less than optimal. How many of you out there refuse to set your timing at 10 or 12* BTDC simply because every manual says it should only be 6? How many refuse to do the Shelby drop even though the factory saw fit and proper to set everything an inch higher? With obvious benefits, why wouldn't the factory have done it that way in the first place?

skywalker · Apr 29, 2004

Pakrat: I'm with you on that though I think the optimal drive angle is probably 0. The reason the drastic drive angle the tko gives is so bad is because it takes the U-joint way to far. If you saw one installed you'd see what I mean.

63_Fairlane · Apr 29, 2004

From what I am reading here, everyone agrees that the Tremecs require fairly significant modifications to be installed correctly in most cases (65-68 cars). The T-5 on the other hand is pretty much a drop in operation, minus some minor clearancing.

One important thing to note, these are mass produced cars, many with waaaaay over 150K miles on them. There will be some differences in tunnel height, engine set back, pinion angle, etc due to the original factory tolerances plus the flex brought on by 40 years off hard driving. Some folks will have issues, other will not due to the variation.

One other question, where are all of these calibrated flat driveways, garages, and streets?? Magnetic angle guages measure total angle with no ground reference.

dmac · Apr 29, 2004

trany info

guys, this is some good information...i just found this forum today and it seems to be a good source of info on the older pony's..this thread is applicable to one of the things i am in the process of doing now..i would like to hear an answer to the question about installing a tremec 6 speed in a '67 body...i purchased the one that is a direct replacement for a T-5 along with a lakewood scattershield...i'm actually running a top loader now, but had purchased a T-5 some time back and bought all the 'vendor supplied' brackets, etc. that were supposed to make it work..my reasoning was, if a t-5 was going to fit, then the tremec replacement should work...it's funny how none of the vendors mention the driveline angle, or fit problems...i also haven't addressed the clutch situation, so if anybody has any suggestions here, i'd like to hear them...i purchased from ford the svt flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, and balancer assembly in the 28 oz. balance setup to work with the older motors...if anyone's got any advice or suggestions, i'd certainly like to hear it...thanks, dmac

3spd on floor · Apr 29, 2004

Hack said:
It's described in this thread, a few posts up.

thanks, i totally missed that. i'll do that when i get back to my car and post results.

3spd on floor · Apr 29, 2004

dmac said:
guys, this is some good information...i just found this forum today and it seems to be a good source of info on the older pony's..this thread is applicable to one of the things i am in the process of doing now..i would like to hear an answer to the question about installing a tremec 6 speed in a '67 body...i purchased the one that is a direct replacement for a T-5 along with a lakewood scattershield...i'm actually running a top loader now, but had purchased a T-5 some time back and bought all the 'vendor supplied' brackets, etc. that were supposed to make it work..my reasoning was, if a t-5 was going to fit, then the tremec replacement should work...it's funny how none of the vendors mention the driveline angle, or fit problems...i also haven't addressed the clutch situation, so if anybody has any suggestions here, i'd like to hear them...i purchased from ford the svt flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, and balancer assembly in the 28 oz. balance setup to work with the older motors...if anyone's got any advice or suggestions, i'd certainly like to hear it...thanks, dmac

if you're talking about a T56, it will NOT just bolt right in without cutting all sorts of stuff up. While technically the T56 is a direct replacement for the T5, this is only because they will mount to the same engines, and have the output shaft in the same place. All the critical dimensions are the same, but the T56 is much much bulkier than either the T5 or the TKO. It is simply the bulk of the T56 that makes it harder to install than a T5.

Ronstang · Apr 29, 2004

Magnetic angle guages measure total angle with no ground reference.

You don't measure the drivetrain angle with respect to the ground. It is measured in reference the the frame or imaginary horizontal of the car and in the case of the unibody Mustang that is the rocker panel. The procecure I use to measure drivetrain angle is as follows:

Place the magnetic angle finder on the upper surface of the rocker panel/door sill and record the indicated angle. Then place the angle finder on the valve cover or any onther location on the engine that is parallel to the camshaft (you cannot use the carb pad or air cleaner since carb mounting surface on the intake manifold is angled ro compensate for drivetrain angle to make the carb close to level) and record the indicated angle. The diffence between these two angles is the measured drivetrain angle.

This angle is arbitrary but it is still a valid specification. It at least gives you a reference of what the factory setting is and everything in the drivertain was designed around it including driveshaft phasing and pinion angle so in my opinion it is an important relationship to maintain. On all Mustangs I have ever measured this angle has always been 3 degrees or so close that the variance was negligible.

I encourage everyone to measure their car for reference. If it is stock then you will know where it should be when you modify it and if it has already been modified you can see how close you actually are. If you haven't done the swap yet but can borrow a T-5 or Tremec I further encourage you to do some testing. Bolt the tranny up and jack it up until it bottoms out. Measure the drivetrain angle and compare it to your stock measurement...if it isn't the same or a hair less is better, you will have to notch/modify your car some to maintain the proper drivetrain angle and you will possibly have to make your own crossmember unless you feel like shimming a store bought one.

63_Fairlane · Apr 30, 2004

Ronstang,

Thanks for clarifying the drivetain angle measurement for myself and other folks looking at this thread.

BAD67FUN · Apr 30, 2004

Okay... all this 5 speed talk is giving me a boner. It really makes me miss my old 5.0 Notch. I beat the crap out of that car autocrossing and the T5 held up just fine. Maybe I was just lucky.

I have two questions. First, what year range is it that's supposed to be the stronger T5? It's something like 90 to 93 I think. Just want to clarify that.

And second, where's the best place to pick one up? Ebay? Local yards around here are MOST likely picked clean of them.

What's a good price if I were to just grab one that needs a rebuild? How much does a rebuild kit cost?

skywalker · Apr 30, 2004

90-93. you can buy them brand new most anywhere, rebuilt ones from moderndriveline are good..you'd be surprised how many you will find in a junkyard.

I don't know about a rebuld kit, but the tranny costs $1200+ brand new.

69 stallion · Jun 21, 2004

how about some more details on the 1969 mustang swap, the question was directed for a 1969 mustang with a 351w

5.0n66 · Jun 22, 2004

check the actual coding of the mfg date (forget how the #s work exactly)... but I ended up with a '90 5.0 drivetrain once-upon-a-time that was unaltered and yet had an '89(weaker) T5 in it (must have been built early in the year)

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