uh oh... inner rockers.

DukeGnarley · Feb 11, 2012

so over the last few days I've been pulling the floor out of my '65 convertible. At the moment it has a rollbar, the inner and outer rockers,some beefy subframe connectors, and some door supports. It is also supported at the front of the frame rail extensions and at the back of the rocker panel. It's also just a bare shell right now.

After I got the floor out, I noticed that the passenger inner rocker is rotten on the bottom.

Has anyone replaced one of these? It looks pretty involved. My first reaction was to hand it off to a professional. I live about 10 minutes from The Mustang Shop, but I'm willing to bet having them do it would be pretty expensive.

If I do do this myself, what other panels will I need to remove to get it out?

I'm hoping to have this thing back together by the end of the summer.

Thanks,

-Duke.

2+2GT · Feb 11, 2012

The inner rocker is a heavy-duty repair. You'll need a spot weld drill, air chisel, and perhaps a cutting torch for removal. To install, you'll need a MIG welder.

Remove the old rocker in pieces, including the pinchweld. I have seen cars with the old pinchweld left in place, and it compromises the strength of the repair, and makes fitment of things like the sill plate a problem. You'll need to bend the outer end of the upper seat platform away from the rocker, and remove all of the rocker from the hems of the platform. You'll need to bend the B pillar brace similarly. The gusset from the rocker to the rear axle hump needs to be bent inward toward the center of the car. I have seen the brace and gusset cut and re-welded on some jobs, just to get access to the rail. If you are replacing the floor, much of this has already happened to get the floor out. Use the full one-piece floor, not sections, for a superior repair.

Inserting the new rail can depend on the other repairs. If you need a front torque box, that's handy, because the rocker can be inserted from the front. If the torque box is intact, then you'll need to cut a hole in the front of the box, which will be repaired afterward.

Hack · Feb 11, 2012

Just because you buy a replacement inner rocker and it comes as one big piece doesn't mean you have to use the entire thing. I recommend you get into the car and figure out how much damage is there. I'm probably overly anal and decided to replace torque boxes and cut the front subframes apart even though all the parts were very solid and not rusty. I made a huge job for myself that wasn't necessary, though.
If you find that the bottom of the rocker is gone but the top is fine, you can just cut the bottom out and cut the replacement panel to fit the area you removed. If you buy a flanging tool you could make the replacement inner rocker fit inside the existing inner rocker. That's the way I would do it if the inner rocker is only failing at the bottom but the top of the inner rocker is still solid. Then I would make the flange in the replacement panel so that it fits up inside what's left of the original inner rocker. Drill holes in the existing inner rocker only every 2-3 inches and rosette weld where the flanges overlap. Then come back and seam weld all along the exposed joint. Then you can grind the welds flat and you'll never know the repair was there. It will be very strong - in fact stronger than a single piece inner rocker because of the flange and the extra spot welds.
Of course before you put the parts together you will want to take the opportunity to get the rust out of the area and seal up the inside of the inner rocker.

2+2GT · Feb 11, 2012

I've never seen the top of a rocker rotted out. The work involved in replacing only the bottom half would be an order of magnitude more than replacing the whole thing, because you'd have to do a continuous weld along the center and inner portion, and end up with a Frankenrail.

Would you seriously replace only the lower part of this rail?

Hack · Feb 11, 2012

I assume you are asking me that question. My answer is, "I don't know." From the photo it's hard to tell but that car looks really bad to me. I would want to separate the top pinch welds and clean out all the rust between the parts. When you have two panels that are welded together with spot welds and there is rust all between them, you can't get rid of that rust without separating the panels completely. But then when a car is as far gone as the one in your photo, EVERY single panel joint has the same sort of rust. Some people - including me - are very anal about their cars. I don't want to leave any panels in my car that look like the panels in your photo. However, taking a car that completely apart is an immense amount of work. I'm too crazy about my car to leave even a little rust deep inside a pinch weld and paint over it. However, I realize that most people are not that way. If every pinch weld looks that bad and you just want a decent driver, it's possible to just fix the bottom and inside of the inner rocker, clean the rust from all the pinch welds in the car as best you can, paint it and get a very long life out of your repairs. This is especially true if you only drive the car occasionally on nice days.

I disagree with you that it's a lot of work to put a seam weld down the length of a rocker. If you didn't care about warping you could do it in less than 5 minutes. You will want to take longer than that, though. I would start with 1 inch long welds about three inches apart on an extremely rigid part like this. Then let it cool and come back and fill in gaps. If you have a car that's as far gone as the one in your photo, a well done partial inner rocker repair could be the best part of the car. The prep work would take much longer than the actual welding. The welding could be done in less than an hour.

65Rob · Feb 11, 2012

That looks familiar. It is a bit of a pain to do, between drilling out the spot welds and getting the other body parts attached off. You should brace the door to be safe. Your torque box is probably toast too so may as well do it now since it's wrapped all around the rail.

PoppyMod · Feb 11, 2012

yep! That looks like the repairs I made to both sides of my early 65 vert. Both torque boxes, both toe boards, both floors, left frame rail beneath the drives floor, left rear outer wheel house, rear taillight panel, left trunk panel and drop off. UGH! But looking back, it was worth.
It looks like you're on the right path.
Good Luck!

DukeGnarley · Feb 11, 2012

Thanks for the replies guys. I already have door braces in, and my rockers don't look as bad as the ones pictured above, but they are bad enough to want to replace. from the outside my torque boxes look like they're in good shape, would it be better to just remove them to get the inner rocker out, or should I just cut through them and then patch them afterwards? I have all the tools I will need. I'm going to head down to the mustang shop to see if they have any inner rockers on hand, and while I'm there I'll see how much they would want to replace them.

-Duke

PoppyMod · Feb 11, 2012

Hi Duke,
I guess you do know you'll need to remove that seat pan, as well. Regarding the torque boxes, When I opened mine up, there was so much rust inside flaking a lying on the bottom, there was no doubt I was going to replace them. However, I did one side at a time as I didn't have any braces in place. Also, be very diligent about leveling and measuring. The last thing you want is a "slightly" twisted frame.
Good Luck!

Hack · Feb 11, 2012

When I pulled my torque boxes out, they were in really great shape with only a very little surface rust. However, the passenger side was about 1/2 full of sand and gravel. How it got in there I don't know, but I was really glad I dug into it. The driver's side was almost completely filled with an old mouse's nest. That surprised me even more.

palerider94 · Feb 12, 2012

I did mine on both sides of my 66 vert. they looked as bad as the pictures. Its a pretty big job. I did inners on one side and and inner/outers on the other. The full peice rocker was actually easier than drilling and welding all the spot welds for just the inner. If you decide to do just inners -I ran into a snag that inners were not exactly the same contour as the outers. Was not frame sag either apparantly other ran into same problem. From wwhat I rememeber reading sounded like the dynacorns were better.

65Rob · Feb 12, 2012

DukeGnarley said:
Thanks for the replies guys. I already have door braces in, and my rockers don't look as bad as the ones pictured above, but they are bad enough to want to replace. from the outside my torque boxes look like they're in good shape, would it be better to just remove them to get the inner rocker out, or should I just cut through them and then patch them afterwards? I have all the tools I will need. I'm going to head down to the mustang shop to see if they have any inner rockers on hand, and while I'm there I'll see how much they would want to replace them.

-Duke

I'm curious what the charge would be, it's not that it's technically difficult to do but it's quite labour intensive so I'm guessing not cheap.

DukeGnarley · Feb 12, 2012

the guy at the shop on Saturday couldn't tell me, and said I should call back on Monday, so that's what I'm going to do. I'll let you know what they say.

DukeGnarley · Feb 13, 2012

they said it would be about 90 hours at $90/hour ($8100). No thanks.

65Rob · Feb 13, 2012

DukeGnarley said:
they said it would be about 90 hours at $90/hour ($8100). No thanks.

Ouch I didn't track how long it took me but I'm sure it was a lot less than 90 hours and I'm not a pro.

Thanks for the update, good to know how much these things can cost if you farm it out.

palerider94 · Feb 13, 2012

I did not keep track of mine either but I'm guess with floor already out 3 days per side. 1 Day to get out and another day to get in and another day of oh crap what did I get myself into. I made a jig that helped me out a lot - but I was replacing a lot of metal - side cowl panels, firewall, etc. Did it first with out jig and did not like the way it lined up and took it out and redid. When I did w/o jig and cut the side cowl out and rocker dropped down got a little nervous on how I would line everything back up. If you are near NW Indiana I should be done with the jig soon - can borrow or buy.

DukeGnarley · Feb 13, 2012

Nice jig, too bad I live near Seattle . Right now the car is on a lift. I think i will drill out the lower spot welds from the rocker, then put it on jack stands and get it all level before I do the rest. When you guys drilled out the welds, did you do it from the outside or inside? It looks like there are three layers of material, I just need to keep the outer most layer right (outer rocker)? I went down the harbor a couple of days ago and picked up 12 of their little $1 C-clamps so I should be set for holding the new rockers in for welding.

When they told me 90 hours, my first impression was that they did not know what they were doing. The guy said they'd done a few before, but would have to spend time making braces and things for the car. I would think any good mustang specialist would have a jig already made up for that sort of thing.

Hack · Feb 14, 2012

I would be more likely to trust a shop that gave a high number to do a good repair. It's a lot of work if you do it right, even if you're a pro. I would want everything spotlessly clean inside the panels and rust proofed the way it should be prior to welding back together. I would also want weld-through primer used in all the areas that get welded together to try to keep future corrosion down. Even with paint and seam sealer, moisture will eventually get between the panels and I wouldn't want bare metal in there to start rusting right away. Part of what they're doing is hedging against additional problems they might find when they get into the repair, in my opinion. By the way, I'm assuming 90 hours is for BOTH sides, right? That actually doesn't seem that far off to me. I'm POSITIVE it would take me much longer than that. I can say that most things I do with cars there are others on the internet who seem to be 10 times faster. I'm not sure why.

I would always prefer to keep more parts in the car if possible, but you have to decide how thorough you want to be. I got into a lot of "might as wells" when pulling my car apart. If you are drilling welds, I would drill from the inside. That way your repairs will be less obvious later.

palerider94 · Feb 14, 2012

I did spot welds from the side where you can see indentation when sanding off paint. That way you can see what your drilling into. Almost does not really even matter since you will be plug filling them and grinding smooth - plus sill will cover. I guess if you add the time to do the jig I had close to 80hrs in full job. No prior experience. I would have guess a mustang shop would have had them also. Make sure you brace your doors too. Attached a link for door braces but you can make them yourself pretty easily. Id also part the rails prior to cutting out old ones so yo can get a better picture. But you are right only the outer layer rmains.

http://www.accessiblesystems.com/mdb.php

DukeGnarley · Feb 17, 2012

Well I got the lower part of the front torque box out, and now I'm looking at the rear. What all did you guys have to remove from the car to get the inner rocker out? It looks like I need to take out the front leaf spring bracket just to get to some of the welds between the rear torque box and the inner rocker, but after that, can I leave the rear torque box in?

uh oh... inner rockers.

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