upgrade advice for my 64-1/2 convertible

[cm409]

hello

i recently inherited a 64-1/2 6 cyl. 3 speed convertible from my neighbor.
she purchased the car new in 64 and although it was used as her "every day" car for the first 20 years its still a great survivor as it was garaged all its life.
its all original with 90k miles and had some minor rust fixed and a repaint in the 80's.
Ive been a Chevy guy and dont know much about mustangs so any information will be most appreciated.

car issues....
the car brakes like a lead sled and the steering is loose jittery and "squirrel like"
in such condition i am not comfortable driving it on a highway. i put on new tires but that did not improve the handling much.
i have considered upgrading the front end and adding power steering and brakes to improve the driving experience.

my questions..
1)will upgrading with with power steering and brakes diminish its value
2)where is the best place to to buy a power steering and brake upgrade kit, not looking to cheap out, i would prefer reasonable quality.
3)where was the build sheet typically located
4)is there a website that can decode the vin#
5)who is a reputable vendor for parts

please feel free to offer any advice or opinions.

thanks

 

[WORTH]

You may not like the power steering upgrade, it is a poorly designed system with built in slop. That car should be easy to steer with manual steering if the front end is all in good condition, I would check and repair the existing front end parts and leave it manual steering if it were mine. If you want to upgrade the brakes for a daily driver ,I would go with power disc in the front. If it's just a weekender or car show ride, the manual brakes are fine if you keep them adjusted, or you could just add a booster to the drum brake system for ease of pedal push.

 

[cm409]

thanks
the ease of steering is not an issue as the car is small so i could live without power steering, its just the slop and jitters that make this beautiful car a poor driving experience. its poor handling can be best described as driving a boat with a hull full of water.
to complicate my decisions i see that there is also a rack and pinion upgrade aside of a power steering conversion??
whats more likely contributing to the poor front end handling?, the front end itself-the original steering-or a combination of the two?

as far as the brakes go i have no issues going with a power discs front if will be an improvement.

the car is not a show car and will be used as a daily "summer" driver so my only objective here is safety and functionality.

 

[WORTH]

If you are used to newer cars, the biggest difference in the way they feel is radial tires, providing the suspension is all in good condition. If you're building a fun summer ride I would do power front discs, add a panard bar to the rear so you can run radials, and just rebuild the current suspension. And if you want a little tighter feel you can add front and rear sway bars as well.

 

[Charlie Cheap]

cm409, the Mustang 6 never needs power brakes. WORTH is right about front disc brakes and a rear sway-bar. Radials have much more sidewall flex than the OEM bias tires. Rebuild the frontend with poly bushings everywhere but the struts, and check the play (slack) in the steering box. Rebuild it if necessary. Poly bushings eliminate much of the "wandering" feel in older suspensions, but poly does not allow enough flex for the strut rods and the rods can brake. A rear sway-bar and gas shocks should eliminate the rear wagging the car (tail wagging the dog reference), and check the springs. The 65 Mustang 6 came with 85 pound leafs and the V8 had 115 pounds...install the V8 type for more control. Maybe just add a leaf. The speed limit in 1965 was 65 MPH and here in Texas it is 85 MPH in some places, so suspension is extremely important with our old Pony. Mine is a coupe 6 that had the same problems. Good luck.

 

[rbohm]

ok first, no need to add power steering, i have a 64 falcon without power steering and with the six, and it does just fine without the power steering system.

for the suspension and steering, go to opentracker racing products and get his blueprinted suspension components and his lower control arms with spherical bearings and roller bearing spring perches. this will tighten up your stock suspension nicely, and give you much better feel. while you are there do the shelby/arning drop where you lower the upper control arm pivot point 1" and move it back 1/8". it will also give you plenty of good feel and better grip as well.

one more thing add in adjustable strut rods with spherical bearings to eliminate front suspension binding and add in a little extra ajustability as well.

add front disc brakes to the car, power or non power it doesnt matter. my falcon does nicely without power brakes, and four wheel drums as well, but even i will upgrade to front discs in the future. there are plenty of places to get a conversion kit that will allow you to keep the stock wheels, i like NPD.

for better driveability you can add a T5 5 speed trans, modern driveline has the conversion kit you need, with or without the trans. that will give you two more gears, one being an overdrive, and a lower first gear to help launch the car. you can even step up the rear gears to a 3.50 gear.

charlie cheap did a nice job upgrading his six for daily use, so if you follow his recipe you cant lose. his build is in this thread;

https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-fo...et-driven-65-67-mustangs.906984/#post-9145065

one more thing to get while you are at it that will really help the front end stiffness is a cross member from zray;

https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/...le-street-competition-engine-crossmember.html

 

[Charlie Cheap]

I forgot, I used a front disc brake kit from Summit...I think. Anyway, it was about $900.00 complete and allowed the use of the stock 6 cylinder 4 bolt wheel spindles, and came with the small 7" boost chamber. I did not use the power boost. I am the go-to guy on the Mustang 6 Association and get questions about Pony 6 cylinders all the time. I wanted to check the new discs with and without power. The booster is not needed on our light six with less than 300 HP. My mods use V8 Ford parts, after market poly bushings, sway bar, gas shocks, Monte Carlo bar, Export Brace and will vastly improve the ride. However, if you are looking for serious upgrades, rbohm has good info.

 

[cm409]

Thanks for all the input guys

I’m not looking to take it to the serious upgrade level, my primary objective is to take the slop out of the front end and eliminate the feeling like I’m driving a boat with a hull full of water, along with sloppy, loose jittery steering.
I don’t want to mess with the current transmission or its original wheels/bolt pattern.
As for braking, Right now the car brakes like a lead sled and I find myself having to press the brake pedal way to hard.

I am trying to digest all the good information everyone has been providing, given my objectives am I correct in understanding the following so far........

I should start by rebuilding the front end, does that include replacing or upgrading the front sway bar and springs?
Is it better or more advantageous to buy a complete front end rebuild kit rather than just use generic individual parts from a vendor such as Napa.

Should I get a new steering box or can the original steering box be rebuilt To satisfactory condition

Do these cars have shocks in the front or struts? I see struts are being referred to in the posts

Did these cars come with the sway bar in the rear ? if not is this something worth adding to improve the overall handling?

Will upgrading to front disc brakes without power steering involve upgrading the master cylinder to a dual reservoir versus a single?

as part of my research to date I have only made one call so far to a vendor and that was CJ pony parts.
they did bring to light a few issues that I was not aware of.
they mentioned that because my vehicle is a six cylinder 3 speed on the floor, that trying to install a power brake booster or different steering box or power steering unit might interfere with existing/original placement of certain items in the engine compartment such as the clutch placement etc?
I would rather not get into any invasive rearrangement if it’s not necessary.

Please forgive some of these questions if they seem elementary, I’m trying to learn about the car and you guys have been a big help so far.
Thanks

 

[Charlie Cheap]

cm409, simply replacing front bushings/rod-ends will improve wandering. New shocks and sway-bar bushings will also help, and yes, the Pony has a front sway-bar. I replaced the rubber sway-bar bushings with poly bushings to stiffen it more...it helped. Rebuilding the steering can be done if you send it to a good shop. That is what I did. Find one in your area because a good shop is necessary for many suspension things. Alignment being one. It sounds like you may need rod ends and the idler. A front-end shop will be able to tell you. While the front is being repaired tell them to add 2 degrees positive caster. The 6 Mustang does not have much and it can cause "wobble" when hitting a pot hole. The Mustang did not come with a rear sway-bar but I added one with poly bushings, and that made a big improvement in rear "loose" feeling...what you call, a boat full of water. You will spend a few hundred dollars for all this, but putting mega-bucks into a Sunday driver is a waste of $$$ to me. Without the disc brakes expect to spend about a grand. Power discs are not necessary but the cheapest kit I found came with the 7" vacuum booster, though I did not use it. That kit is about $900.00. Rebuild the rear brakes when switching to discs. Good luck

 

[Charlie Cheap]

I forgot. WORTH is right...power steering is not necessary on a 6 Mustang, plus it is a bad design. Power brakes? I don't see any need there either, but I am use to driving heavy front, big V8 Street Rods, with manual steering, so the inline-6 Pony feels easy! I feel like I am repeating myself, so SAVE this info and list the mods separately on a list of TO DO things.

 

[rbohm]

Thanks for all the input guys

I’m not looking to take it to the serious upgrade level, my primary objective is to take the slop out of the front end and eliminate the feeling like I’m driving a boat with a hull full of water, along with sloppy, loose jittery steering.
I don’t want to mess with the current transmission or its original wheels/bolt pattern.
As for braking, Right now the car brakes like a lead sled and I find myself having to press the brake pedal way to hard.

I am trying to digest all the good information everyone has been providing, given my objectives am I correct in understanding the following so far........

I should start by rebuilding the front end, does that include replacing or upgrading the front sway bar and springs?
Is it better or more advantageous to buy a complete front end rebuild kit rather than just use generic individual parts from a vendor such as Napa.

a basic rebuild will do nicely for most applications. mustangs plus has complete kits.

Should I get a new steering box or can the original steering box be rebuilt To satisfactory condition

check out this website;

http://www.chockostangclassicmustang.com/

there you can have your steering box rebuilt to like new for less money than replacing it.

Do these cars have shocks in the front or struts? I see struts are being referred to in the posts

the cars have shocks, but they have strut RODS that are part of the lower control arm system.

Did these cars come with the sway bar in the rear ? if not is this something worth adding to improve the overall handling?

no rear sway bar, and no need to add one either, especially with the six s they tend to throw the suspension out of balance.

Will upgrading to front disc brakes without power steering involve upgrading the master cylinder to a dual reservoir versus a single?

whether you upgrade to power steering or not, you will need to upgrade to a dual master cylinder if you upgrade to disc brakes. it is a good idea to upgrade anyway for safety reasons.


Please forgive some of these questions if they seem elementary, I’m trying to learn about the car and you guys have been a big help so far.
Thanks[/QUOTE]

better to ask questions than make dumb mistakes.

 

[Charlie Cheap]

rbohm may be right, but the single biggest improvement for "rear-sway" was when I added the rear anti-sway-bar. We call it a sway-bar but it is technically an anti-sway-bar. He could be right though as I have done other mods to my 65 six. Radial tires have sidewalls that "flex" far more than bias tires, giving a rear wiggle feel. He is definitely right about asking questions! DO NOT let someone talk you into putting polyurethane bushings in place of the rubber strut rod bushings. I have seen them brake strut rods...not enough flex for street use. The lower suspension arm moves up and down and rubber allows the strut rod enough movement. Poly is very stiff, and here, way too stiff. I am an ASE certified mechanic who spent 50 years building cars "frame-up". I am NOT an engineer but I do have their suspension books to reference, and have many times. rbohm may be correct about a rear sway-bar, because I installed poly bushings in my front bar at the same time. That could make a big difference. The car suspension is a TOTAL package, and sometimes doing one thing hurts another. I also have gas shocks on all 4 corners and wide 15" radials on 6" front and 7" rear rims. Good luck with the convertible.

 

[cm409]

Thanks

Is there anything to be said about any potential steering or front disc upgrade interfering with items in the original/Existing engine compartment such as the clutch linkage? The sales rep from cj pony parts Mentioned something along those lines

 

[Charlie Cheap]

Going to power discs may be a problem with some boosters, but the 7" diameter unit works on a coupe okay. Your convertible has an extra brace to the firewall that could be a problem. Otherwise, get a kit that allows 14" or bigger wheels. The 64.5 came with 13" and the disc does not have enough clearance. Also, be sure to route the flex-hoses to clear with wheels turned lock-to-lock. Otherwise...have fun!