Which would be a better avenue of aproach?

DallasJ_TSi · Dec 4, 2004

First a little background. I have the 2 cars in my sig. The talon has the power for 11s, but not the clutch. Also right now its at the point were Im scared things are gonna break(24psi with alky injection on pump, stock block, 45lb/min of airflow, TO4E 50 trim turbo, cams, etc.)

One of my goals in life is to build a 9 second car. Im not a newbie to cars one bit, but Im a newbie to mustang specific.

Ive been thinking about parting out the talon, putting it back to stock, then using it as a daily driver and having the mustang as a track terror.

If I part the talon out I should easily be able to come out to about 7-8k.

If 9s is the ultimate goal of the mustang, where should I start. Right now it has a king cobra clutch, upr firewall adjuster and quadrant, un-known h-pipe and thats it. All of that was on when I bought the car. The car has 145k on the clock, and I dont know how much the stock block will take cause I dont know when they tend to pop, but this one has be overhauled with rings and gaskets, but stock rods/pistons.

Here are my options.

- Get a Supercharger or turbo kit installed and have at least some fun since Ill no longer have a car that can trap 115mph+.

- Get the N/A bolt ons and suspension ready to handle boost.

- Get a new block in the car, possibly something like a 347ci or a forged internal'd 302/306.

Dont think of this as a stupid newbie post. Hitting 10s with the talon isnt far away (rebuild, maybe a larger turbo, and weight reduction). But 9s are very elusive for some when trying with a 2.0 or 2.4l motor. Im thinking of doing this cause 5.0l > 2.4l and should be easier to get in the upper 130s traps.

Thanks for the help

-Dallas J

Joes95GT · Dec 4, 2004

7 or 8k to spend?

Turbo guys might bust into here and tell you that "there are guys on Turbomustangs.com running 10's or 9's on the stock block, so can you." Let me tell you that I wouldn't believe that one bit: yes they are running those times. But the car is also a ticking time bomb. You are beyond the limits of the stock block and it's just slowly stressing itself and it will crack, it's just a matter of time.

You are going to need a new motor, it's that simple. The easiest thing will be a stroked Windsor. Find an early 351W block ('69-'74), have it magnafluxed and sonic checked, and when it checks out OK, put a forged 4.00" crank in it with H-beam rods and forged pistons. That's 402 inches with the stock bore. You'll more than likely have to go .030 over to get the walls straight, so you're looking at 408 CID. I you want to go with a Dart block (which has wider pan rails) you can use a 4.25" crank and go from anywhere between 427 - 456 CID.

4xx CID + AFR 225 + Super Spyder Intake + Custom Cam + Power adder = 1000 horsepower (EASY!!!).

Even at 402 CID, the motor will make 650 RWHP naturally aspirated without too much of a problem if you spin it to 6500-6700 RPM. A 250 shot and a properly designed camshaft will get you 1000 horsepower easily.

Better tune the chassis.

Joe

BlueOvalStangGT · Dec 5, 2004

Joes95GT said:
7 or 8k to spend?

Turbo guys might bust into here and tell you that "there are guys on Turbomustangs.com running 10's or 9's on the stock block, so can you." Let me tell you that I wouldn't believe that one bit: yes they are running those times. But the car is also a ticking time bomb. You are beyond the limits of the stock block and it's just slowly stressing itself and it will crack, it's just a matter of time.

You are going to need a new motor, it's that simple. The easiest thing will be a stroked Windsor. Find an early 351W block ('69-'74), have it magnafluxed and sonic checked, and when it checks out OK, put a forged 4.00" crank in it with H-beam rods and forged pistons. That's 402 inches with the stock bore. You'll more than likely have to go .030 over to get the walls straight, so you're looking at 408 CID. I you want to go with a Dart block (which has wider pan rails) you can use a 4.25" crank and go from anywhere between 427 - 456 CID.

4xx CID + AFR 225 + Super Spyder Intake + Custom Cam + Power adder = 1000 horsepower (EASY!!!).

Even at 402 CID, the motor will make 650 RWHP naturally aspirated without too much of a problem if you spin it to 6500-6700 RPM. A 250 shot and a properly designed camshaft will get you 1000 horsepower easily.

Better tune the chassis.

Joe

So you think the older 351's can handle ~1000 hp and not be a ticking time bomb like the other cars listed above??

DallasJ_TSi · Dec 5, 2004

I fully expect to have to rebuild or replace just about everything. Also I know this isnt gonna happen overnight. Itll probably take me a couple of years at least, but I want to get my goals and path paved before I start.

Eventually I want to swap to some type of auto, shifting a 10 or 9 second car would be a hastle.

HP wise Im thinking 800hp is about where I should be shooting for. That with a good chasis set up to get it to the ground should get me into the low 10s or 9s.

I cant decide on supercharger or turbo though. I know a fair amount about turbos, but its a much bigger hastle to turbo a SN95 than supercharge from what Ive read.

Right now, Im thinking a bolt on SC kit that I can build on will be a good starting point to have fun now, and still not have to re-upgrade later. But what SC kit to use that I can just upgrade the charger itself later?

Things I can swap over from the Talon are the PLX wideband, and methanol injection.

-Dallas J

One Wicked SVT · Dec 5, 2004

8k to spend...

skip the pos old school 351 block.

with swap parts, machining it to have hydra system and 1 piece RMS, it adds up... TO A LOT!

Buy a R302/DART 302 block, $1500-2k.
Machine it, $600
Rotating assy, $1200.
AFR 205 heads and some sort of intake: $2k.
Transmission, TKO/XTC $1600.
Read end: Axles/Diff $1k.
Buy a driveshaft as well: $100.

Be done with the hard core necessary items.

Joes95GT · Dec 5, 2004

One Wicked SVT said:
8k to spend...

skip the pos old school 351 block.

with swap parts, machining it to have hydra system and 1 piece RMS, it adds up... TO A LOT!

Buy a R302/DART 302 block, $1500-2k.
Machine it, $600
Rotating assy, $1200.
AFR 205 heads and some sort of intake: $2k.
Transmission, TKO/XTC $1600.
Read end: Axles/Diff $1k.
Buy a driveshaft as well: $100.

Be done with the hard core necessary items.

A few things to add here....

1) No, the old blocks will not handle 1000 RWHP reliably. Some say they can go to 900, but I'm not that brave.

2) Why buy a 302 based DART block when you're starting from scratch? That's counter productive. With more cubes, you need to stress the motor less to get the desired power output. Less stress on a motor = less chance of parts breaking.

3) The only kind of stick shift transmission that will live behind an 800-1000 horsepower motor is a clutchless-style 5 speed (Lenco). Those are too much money for this purpose, however. A C4 or powerglide would be your best option.

4) If you can't find a full rotating assembly for 1200 bucks, I don't know if I'd pat you on the back or laugh at you - I wouldn't run it. A crankshaft alone will take up the majority of (if not more than) than the "allotted" 1200 bucks.

Joe

One Wicked SVT · Dec 5, 2004

dude..

Umm... he is only shooting for 9seconds...

That is about 650-700rwhp

The engine will hold it, the rotating assembly will hold it and the transmission will hold it, as well as the rear end.

Mission accomplished until power adder is ADDED.

XTC V2.0 will handle the power exceptionally... and there are many rotating assemblies out there such as EAGLE which isnt expensive and is proven to 1khp.

One thing I forgot to add was the fuel system for a mild application which will run about $1k, plus the MAF+INJ whcih is another 500+/- depending who you purchase from.

The only reason I am telling him to go 302 because of his budget. A 351 will add about 1000-1500 more.

zenboy99 · Dec 5, 2004

One Wicked SVT said:
skip the pos old school 351 block.

Try telling that to some of the guys in NMRA who are running 9's and 8's with the "pos old school 351 block"

Whats the deal with you and Ford engine blocks?

Joes95GT · Dec 5, 2004

One Wicked SVT said:
dude..

Umm... he is only shooting for 9seconds...

That is about 650-700rwhp

The guy who started the post said 800. Not me. 650 RWHP will pull high nines in a dedicated drag car. I don't think he wants that. More power will be needed.

One Wicked SVT said:
XTC V2.0 will handle the power exceptionally... and there are many rotating assemblies out there such as EAGLE which isnt expensive and is proven to 1khp.

I agree and disagree at the same time. It's not worth debating over because it comes down to peoples economic principals (I'm not saying I'm right and I'm not saying you're wrong). I would buy American parts for the security, but that's just me.

One Wicked SVT said:
The only reason I am telling him to go 302 because of his budget. A 351 will add about 1000-1500 more.

Ok, you say he'll need 700 RWHP. What's wrong with an old '69 - '74 351W block? They can tolerate 700-750 RWHP all day long when built right. Converting to a 1 piece RMS isn't any more than 100 bucks and you can run dog-bone lifters, too. Machine work isn't a big deal. If you are worried about money, I'll bet an old W-based shortblock would cost the same (if not less) as a DART-based 302 shortblock.

You can't have a budget when building a car that will be turning these type of numbers (650+). A 3.400" crank is NO WHERE near as competitive as a 4.000" crank and I think you know this. You'd have to spin the 3.400" crank (342) to 8000 RPM to achieve the same piston speed as the 4.000" crank (402) at 6700 RPM. RPM kills motors. He'd be better off spending the money on the 351-based block and turning lower RPM, possibly saving parts.

Joe

DallasJ_TSi · Dec 5, 2004

I am by no means saying that $8k is going to get me into the 9s. I just need a good route to go on, and where the best place to start would be.

Obviously Im not going to do it with the block thats in the car. So I need to figure out what im going to get that will handle about 800hp, which was just a quick guess as to what it will take to get a lightened car into the 9s.

If it takes spending the money on a dart block to have the safety of mind of not splitting my block, then thats the route Ill take.

I dont want to use N2O because I dont like the Idea of having to fill the bottle all the time. Plus It would be nice to be able to race in a single power adder class.

Im still not sure on weather I should be building the basics such as the Long block set up, standard bolt ons, and suspension, or getting a turbo kit and grow into it.

Looking at the different kits available, that is if I dont just make my own, the HP performance one strikes me as the most complete. Ive just read about how long it takes to get a kit, but thats not that big of a deal right now.

-Dallas J

Joes95GT · Dec 5, 2004

Trying to actually set up the suspension without the power on tap would be useless. Buying the parts you will need to support all that power will not be. You could most certainly start on the suspension, if that's where you want to start. You've gotta start somewhere....

I can't comment on turbo set-ups. I know nothing about them, and really don't want to. Too complex for me.

If you are looking for a place to start, I would start with the long block. Get a decent amount of power in the car (N/A form) and start working on the suspension to get it close to "dialed in." After that, then start to worry about the power-adder.

Joe

DallasJ_TSi · Dec 6, 2004

Joes95GT said:
Trying to actually set up the suspension without the power on tap would be useless. Buying the parts you will need to support all that power will not be. You could most certainly start on the suspension, if that's where you want to start. You've gotta start somewhere....

I can't comment on turbo set-ups. I know nothing about them, and really don't want to. Too complex for me.

If you are looking for a place to start, I would start with the long block. Get a decent amount of power in the car (N/A form) and start working on the suspension to get it close to "dialed in." After that, then start to worry about the power-adder.

Joe

Thanks for the reply.

I know that boost and N/A builds have different components like heads, cams etc.. I guess since my car does have 150k on it though that getting everything freshened up would be a good idea. I just dont want to upgrade to a AFR 185cc head then wish I got 205cc or 225's. Exhaust wise, I dont really want to upgrade anymore cause I might just go with a single, but maybe not .

Ive got plenty time to decide though, so I should have everything figured out eventually, with other peoples help that is

-Dallas J

Joes95GT · Dec 6, 2004

DallasJ_TSi said:
Thanks for the reply.

I know that boost and N/A builds have different components like heads, cams etc.. I guess since my car does have 150k on it though that getting everything freshened up would be a good idea. I just dont want to upgrade to a AFR 185cc head then wish I got 205cc or 225's. Exhaust wise, I dont really want to upgrade anymore cause I might just go with a single, but maybe not .

Ive got plenty time to decide though, so I should have everything figured out eventually, with other peoples help that is

-Dallas J

The AFR 225 will work fine in N/A form on any version of a stroked 351W. It won't be too "small" when you starting forcing air through it either.

Joe

One Wicked SVT · Dec 6, 2004

zenboy99 said:
Try telling that to some of the guys in NMRA who are running 9's and 8's with the "pos old school 351 block"

Whats the deal with you and Ford engine blocks?

I ran a 69block with the 2pc rms... and it cost me just about $600 to fully machine it.

Was I satisfied with performance... YES.

Was I satisfied that it almost cost me the price of a REAL strong block? No.

IT came up to about $1000 when it was all said and done, on just one block alone.

DallasJ_TSi · Dec 6, 2004

One Wicked SVT said:
I ran a 69block with the 2pc rms... and it cost me just about $600 to fully machine it.

Was I satisfied with performance... YES.

Was I satisfied that it almost cost me the price of a REAL strong block? No.

IT came up to about $1000 when it was all said and done, on just one block alone.

Im gonna read up on the rules in my area for the different classes before I make a decision on what size im gonna run.

I know I want one power adder, but I want to be able to at least compete in my area. So that might leave me with having to use a smaller block (302ish).

Ill find out what class looks good and post back.

-Dallas J

DallasJ_TSi · Dec 6, 2004

Looks like either a 302 or 351 would work for me.

When the classes say small block 302 or 351, does that allow for strokers like a 331?

Anyways, where are some places to start looking for block builds, or sourcing blocks from?

-Dallas J

Joes95GT · Dec 6, 2004

DallasJ_TSi said:
When the classes say small block 302 or 351, does that allow for strokers like a 331?

Yep. A small block Ford constitutes anything in a 260/289/302/351 block. Internals don't make a damn bit of difference, unless of course, there is a ban on something like aluminum connecting rods.

DallasJ_TSi said:
Anyways, where are some places to start looking for block builds, or sourcing blocks from?

What do you mean? Where to look for short/longblock assemblies?

I would call Coast High Performance. In the engine builders challenge they built a very simple big-inch Windsor with ALL off-the-shelf parts and spun 1000 horsepower out of it in naturally aspirated form. They have a no nonsense approach when it comes to building motors, and I think you'll find that their prices are quite fair. You might want to notice that no other company entered into the contest either - that could be a hint that they aren't very confident in the people they have screwing the motors together. Just an observation...

Joe

BlueOvalStangGT · Dec 6, 2004

Joe where did you learn all this from?

DallasJ_TSi · Dec 6, 2004

BlueOvalStangGT said:
Joe where did you learn all this from?

From his post count, Id say he spends alot of time here

-Dallas J

Joes95GT · Dec 7, 2004

BlueOvalStangGT said:
Joe where did you learn all this from?

Learn what?

My Dad's has been a Ford mechanic for the past 20-some years and has been involved in heads-up drag racing since he was 16 - he's 43 now. He knows lots of people and I've learned tons from being around them. This place has taught me a thing or two, too.

Joe

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