Why did Ford build 2 different 351 engines?

[QUOTE='69Stang]You are right, my quick math from 1970-1973 = 3 , oops. I don't usually count 1974 but I guess Clevelands found their way into Cougars and Torinos I guess. But I'd imagine they were the M variant, not the CJ, right?[/QUOTE]
73&74 Midsize cars are a goldmine for CJs.
Ford ended the Cleveland abruptly and reluctantly, they had a stock of high end parts left over and started dumping them in whatever came down the assembly line just to get rid of them. I would venture to say that far more CJs made it into 73-74 Torinos/Cougars than ever made it into Mustangs.
Ford did that sort of thing when it had a backlog of parts. They did the same thing with the 9" rear when they phased it out in 81. Some of the cars you would least expect got 9" rears just so Ford wouldn't have them laying around.
My .02
Dave

Blown4.6 said:

I've got the stock timing in front of me...0 degrees advance for all years. This only difference was compression.

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and more

The advance for the 351C is 10 deg MINIMUM then tune UP from there. The cam (lift, duration), pistons (compression) and combustion chamber(compression again) were different from '71 to '72 4V and HO.
Actually mid '71 saw the creation of the "low-compression" M-code 351CJ (open chamber) to replace the "high-compression" M-code 351 4V (closed chamber). The open chamber CJ only lost 5 HP to the closed chamber 4V AND passed the emission tests of the day. So you had 280 HP at the flywheel instead of 285 HP with all acc. hooked up and running. The '72 351 HO was a De-tuned version of the '71 Boss 351 with open chamber heads and was still one of the quickest production cars on the market for its day.

The 351 Boss was factory rated at 330 HP and the factory rating was on the light side for ins. reasons. The 351 Boss was the fastest "Production" small block for '71 according to 2 or 3 different magazine tests. IMHO this is impressive when you consider how heavy the '71 Mustang is when compared to other cars of the time, especially the 350 'Vette.
Now I would not look forward to running a stock '71 'Vette through serious twisties with a stock '71 Boss but it would be FUN! And who knows, the Boss just might win.
On the dragstrip it would be the Boss hands down. I know because I saw it often enough in the mid '70's. REMEMBER: We are talking STOCK!!! Even today my friends that own and LOVE 'Vettes (as in that is ALL they own or drive) will tell you that they would rather run against a stock BB than a stock Boss 351. Does that mean the Boss is the be-all, end-all of small blocks? NO! It just shows how much RESPECT they have for it and that the 351 Boss is a solid performer.

I don't wanna start a pissin' contest with you or anyone else but I wish people would get their facts straight before they post dis-information in response the legit question that started this thread.

To answer that question :

The 351W was developed for everyday use on the street in cars and trucks and traces its history to the 289/302 family tho the blocks are different.
The '69 351W 4V was a VERY respectable street performer in that it had the same factory HP rating as the Boss 302 (in street tune), more usable Torque in the lower RPM range and was drop dead dependable.

The 351C was bred from the start to be a high rev'ing, high performance engine for Fords racing program and it turned out to be a great street motor, especially in 2V form.

The designations "W" & "C" come from the engine plants that produced the powerplants. Windsor, Ontario, Canada and Cleveland, Ohio respectively.

The 351M was a De-stroked 400M. They are both "roughly" in the Cleveland line of engine development. The "M" comes from Modified as in a different block deck height and other internal changes. At least I think those are the only changes.

The 352 was a MUCH older design from the same '50's era "Y-Block" family as the 312 of Thunderbird fame.

Someone mentioned the "Clevor" and I'll say that the development was never taken far enough. Kinda sad when you think about it since Ford started the whole thing with the Boss 302. Can you imagine the guy at Ford that thought this one up? Hmmm, Lets see... 302 block & crank, 289 rods, special pistons & intake and Cleveland 4V heads with REALLY big valves. Can you say "SCREAMER"?

Thats enough history for one day.

Paul

P.S. I forgot to give my cudos to the competition. 327, the best small block Chevy ever built. 427, the best big block Chevy ever built. 340, the best small block Mopar ever built. 426 Hemi, the best big block Mopar ever built (though the 440 gives it a run for the money). This is just MY OPINION!!!

[QUOTE='69Stang]...Talk to some older guys who used to race on the street and they’ll tell you what was fast or not fast...[/QUOTE]

Gotta be careful who you talk to...some people have already succumbed to the older they get the faster they were......case in point...my father in law.....he loves to brag to me about how his 1966 Nova with a stock 350 was faster than anthing Ford put out from 65-73. And he actually has pictures from the track and trophies from when he used to drag.....but it has all kinda blurred.

I'll never forget last summer when he had a hundred dollars out at my 4th of July picnic telling me he would run his Pontiac Grand prix (the v6 with the super charger) against my 65 Stroker cleveland "right now in the street...I beat porsches everyday with this car!"

[QUOTE='69Stang]You are right, my quick math from 1970-1973 = 3 , oops. I don't usually count 1974 but I guess Clevelands found their way into Cougars and Torinos I guess. But I'd imagine they were the M variant, not the CJ, right?[/QUOTE]
You've gotta remember to count the first year also-- 1970. Then add 1971,1972, 1973, and 1974. The 351M didn't come about till late 75.

Pbford said:

:The 352 was a MUCH older design from the same '50's era "Y-Block" family as the 312 of Thunderbird fame.

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hold on there! the 312 has a distributor in the back, a 352 has it in the front. a 352 weighs 90 pounds more than a 312. the only interchangeable engine parts are the points, condensor, and carb. I own one of each.

He meant that the 352FE motor's design stemmed from the older Y block family, not that it was in the same family.

D.Hearne said:

He meant that the 352FE motor's design stemmed from the older Y block family, not that it was in the same family.

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have you every rebuilt a Y block or an FE? about the only simularity is the number of cylinders. The engines dont even look the same. Saying that the FE was based on a Y block is loke saying that the Y block is based on a flathead. It is not true

The FE is not a Y-block at all.
The "MUCH OLDER" comment was out of place too...
The 352 is only about 10 years older than the 351 stuff.
When 351 stuff was in the showroom and coming in to the dealer for warranty work, the 352 would have been in the shop too for maintainence and on the used lot getting traded in for 351 cars.
That is why they didn't call them 352s.
You wouldn't say that a 1994 Ford engine was "MUCH OLDER" than a 2004 engine.
Dave

Aparently neither of you have looked at an FE block. It is indeed a "Y" block design, with the block skirts extending down below the centerline of the crankshaft, same as the older "Y" block. The 292-312 "Y" block motors were also still in the dealerships for servicing when the 352's were, they were only 3 years older in design than the FE's. So you can't say that they weren't so much older than the FE's. As far as a 2004 being displaced from say a 94 5.0, that would be a stretch, with the 5.0's basic design being almost as old as the FE's, being introduced over 40 years before a 2004 motor, in 1962-3. Then again the Mod motors also have something in common with the "ancient" "Y" block, as they are also "Y" block designs too, with their block skirts extending below the crank centerline.

hey blown4.6 can i see the pictures of all these cars you have?

as i recall, it has been a while since i have seen the article, the pantera gts ran high 13's in the quarter mile, and would run with ferrarri's on the road course, in the same racing class. as for the grand sport corvette, it was designed to compete with the 289 cobra's NOT the 427 cobra's, and while they did beat the small block cobra's, chevrolet produced a grand total of 5 gs corvette's. on the other hand shelby built more than 500 small block cobra's, and just over 1,000 total cobra's. as for the 351c's potential as compared to the lt1 350, i have yet to see a CAST chevy crank turn 10k rpm and live. the 351c crank will do that with standard race preping. and as for duntov not liking big block vette's, that is a load of he felt that a 72 vette with a 454, T400, and a 2.70 rear gear would make a great touring car.

D.Hearne said:

Aparently neither of you have looked at an FE block. It is indeed a "Y" block design, with the block skirts extending down below the centerline of the crankshaft, same as the older "Y" block. The 292-312 "Y" block motors were also still in the dealerships for servicing when the 352's were, they were only 3 years older in design than the FE's.

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Yes, the FE engine series had extended block skirts below the crank centerline as did the 60s Chrysler Hemi; but it has NOTHING in common, design or otherwise, with the engine that we refer to as the "Y-block" Ford. The Y-block came out in 1954 and typically had Ford car displacements of 239, 272, 292, and 312 cu in; while the FE came out in 1958 Ford cars with displacements of 332 and 352 cu in. The last year for the Y-block in cars was 1962 (292 cu in), the same year the 221 cu in (later 260,289,302) SBF made its appearence. So, in 1962, we had all three of those engine series in Ford passenger cars. The only thing in common among any of these engines was the bore centers of the Y-block and the SBF. They shared this dimension so they could be machined on the same production line as they phased in the SBF to replace the Y-block. Interestingly, in the years from 1954 to 1957, Ford had developed the Y-block into a performance/racing engine with dual four barrel carbs and supercharging. However, at the end of 1957, the AMA (Automobile Manufacturers Association) issued a ban on factory participation in racing and building performance parts. This was initiated by GM who actually ignored the ban while Ford adhered to the ruling. Thus, there were no real Ford performance engines from 1958 to 1960. Through these criticall years, GM was offereing all kinds of performance equipment (fuel injection, etc.). Finally, Ford saw what was going on and withdrew from the ban in 1960. By this time, the older Y-block was a dead issue and Ford concentrated on developing the FE as their performance engine. This resulted in the 1960 352 cu in 360 HP FE engine. Then, with the SBF in 1962, Ford also had a small block on which to develop performance equipment. This resulted in the 289 271 Hipo engine used in the Fairlane (later in the Mustang).

You haven't told me anything I didn't know already. The fact still remains that the FE block is a "Y" block design, whether or not it shares anything in common than the engine family referred to as the "Y" block. And the 292 "Y" blocks were still being put into pickups until 64 or 66 ( can't recall the exact date) The "Y" block design is called that, due to the fact that when you look at the block from the front end, it has a "Y" shape. This pertains to the "Y" block, the FE's, and the Mod motors as well. Just because most of the parts between these designs don't interchange, doesn't mean they have nothing in common in design. Just about all of Ford's V8's had basic design similarities, whether they were of different engine families or not.

I would love to see a 350 motor with all stock parts make 400+ HP.
If there was one, I bet it was rare.

D.Hearne said:

You haven't told me anything I didn't know already.......... . Just about all of Ford's V8's had basic design similarities, whether they were of different engine families or not.

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I was just trying to clarify any left over ambiguity among the Ford automobile engine series (notice I didn't mention trucks in my post), and it's good to know that there are people out there like yourself that are knowledgeable in 40 year old Ford engine history. Basically, my point was that since the term "Y-block" has become the default name for a specific Ford engine type, IMO, it may cause confusion to call the FE a "Y-block" deritive. Also, I suppose the idea of what constitutes a "similarity" among the engine series is somewhat a matter of opinion. However, one similarity that I remember is being able to put a Y-block crank into a 289 block to produce 352 cubes. This is the combo that Pete Robinson used to defeat Don Garlits' blown Chrysler rail at one major drag event.