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I like torque numbers
It's always horsepower, horsepower, horsepower
Gimmie torque! I wanna pull a house down the road.
I guess it comes from drve'n a 'dump truck'


Thats it!

Sixes have clydesdale draft horses, V8's thorough-bred horses. As V8's gets bigger, the horses get more like Clydesdales again. Its like comparing a 4.9 F150 truck engine to a 5.0 Truck. Each has a vastly different behaviour to different driving conditions.


I drive a turbo diesel Isuzu FZR 12 ton truck. 7.8 liters of I6 and a nice big intercooled turbo sure helps it haul the 4 tons of bread inside its chiller.

It's this ability to "do work" but "with speed" that is the key to driving up a steep grade. Torque is the abilty to peform the movement of a mass against gravity, essentially a "lift". Power exists because James Watt rated a horsepower as the ability to raise a 165 pound weight 3.28 feet in one second over a one revolution wheel hooked to a horses back. Some horses could do four times the work of others, but he averaged it as an inservice "spot check" quantity over an 8 hour day. Thats one of Mikes 4 speed overdrive gearboxes (165 pounds), hefted up just over three feet in a second.

Animals, people, bugs, they aren't like machines which are only able to give a percentage of there design power or torque. A whipped horse or person spoiling for a match race, they can exceed the actual minority report performance. A bug can sometimes exceed its normal jump height if it is spooked. An engine, it'll self destruct if its oversped or thrashed....it has no electrochemical stimulation to spike its performance...unless you give it Nawsss!

Working out peak torque is actually blQQdy hard, as power and torque are constant only when the wheel in the picture below is spining at 5252 rpm.

1hp.jpg


So 400 "CMA" Horsepower at 6000 rpm is 350 lb-ft at 6000 rpm.

Normally, peak toque is at peak volumetric efficency, down a factor 1.25 to 2.125 below the peak torque figure.

On a 1980-1982 255 Mustang 4.2 liter V8 or old 1969-1980 Ford 250 4.1, peak power was at 3400 rpm, and peak torque, 1600 rpm.
119 hp and 195 lb-ft or about 99 hp and 185 lb-ft, respectively. The difference between them was a 2-bbl verses 1-bbl carb.

On a Maserati 4200 GT, it has 385 hp at 7000 rpm and 333 lb-ft at 4500 rpm. The difference was 5 valves per cylinder, variable valve timing, resonant EFi intkae, and having a Ferrrari block to underpin it all.

As long as the CarMichael Angelo 250 ITB engine can do 5252 rpm, power in hp and torque in lb-ft, will always be equal at that speed. It is for all engines, all living things. Not every living thing can lift 165 pounds 3.3 feet in a second, so Hp and lb-ft is worked out by proportion.


I haven't tried loctite on a Black Widow, and gooping it to a line hooking it to a pulley, but the idea is the same for everything.



Not everything can cylce 5252 rpm. Mikes engine didn't used to go past 4800 rpm in the Maverick it was in. Now, it'll be hard pressed not to go past 6250 rpm when he gives it the Foot.

Mikes engine will hopefully pull its maximum power at about 6000 rpm, and its maximum torque at between 4800 to 4000 rpm.

Hopefully, it'll make more than 355 lb-ft at about 4800 rpm or maybee as low as 4000 rpm, but it will rise very sharply from its 750 rpm idle to those rpms, and lob or loft up in a gradual arch up to, hopefully, about 350 lb-ft at 6000 rpm, and make the 400 hp mark.

The classic American I6 HP increase is different to caming or modifiying a Detriot V8.

From that days of the 1952 Hudson Hornet Twin H to the last GM 4200, the I6 has space to make its intake take an extra bunch of intake tracts, and the power and torque growth is quite linear, even with much more radical cams.

On V8's, Detriot has been always keen to upsize the engine within the confines of the block.

A little 1962 221 Ford becoming a factory stroker 342 by 2002, or a 1955 265 Chev becoming a 400 in 1970, and remained popular for 10 years. These engines were core uses for siamesed bore 4-1/8" race blocks as used in Formula 5000 and some other power boat catagories.

A V8 normally grows its power by stroker capacity, and the popular class regulations normally keep away from ITB's on the basis of cost. In line sixes, regualtions allow for ITB's, but the engines are rpm constrained by crankshaft fatigue, which kicks in when revs go high enough to make about 375 hp from a 200 cube six.

Unlike V8's, sixes lap up and take H-U-G-E inital power and torque increases, much more than V8's, then past a 1985 NASCAR like 1.85 hp per cubic inch, they sharply reach a point of dimishing returns. The joy of V8's is how strong they are at 2.5 hp per cube. In line sixes comprehensivly die at that kind of power due to crank fatigue.

Building an I6 for torque is what Ford Australia did when it replaced the Clevelands. Adding a turbo aslways makes torque, but even so, a stock 1991 to 1997 EFi XR6 engine would make almost as much torque and power as as a stock XR8, the Mustang 5.0 HO EFi engine.
 
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Well,...no more having to imagine.
IMAG0028_zpszi9cq5hg.jpg

one more thing to make somebody stop, scratch their head,....and say....."What am I looking at here?"

Now I get to say......

Well, what you're looking at is a US 250 out of a 1978 Maverick, with an Aluminum Crossflow head that I got off of a Falcon from Australia, That has 6 independent throttle bodies off of a 2003 BMW M3, That's attached to a 4 speed automatic trans from a 2003 Mustang that used to be computer controlled, but is no longer, all sitting in a car that used to be a 1978 Fairmont, that I've now cosmetically altered, and re-badged as it's late 60's Mercury cousin. The 7 red veins go to an external artificial lung so that the brakes and transmission will still function properly...

Got all that?

All of the turbo stuff is gone...The last of it went yesterday. Collin bought the water/meth system, but it has been lost in transit, and I'm having to track where it is along the way...The A2W Ic went first. The waste gates went separate from the turbo, and that went yesterday...all in all, I got about half of the original expense back.

I expect that the machine bill will be around 300.00, and that will be to transfer the rods, and resize, and weight match them. The other half of that for a new valve job after I get done hogging out the head.

I'm pretty sure that I'm gonna make a box that will sit on the TB's and feed them from one common 3" filter that I'll stick out the hole in the fender apron where the old throttle body used to get its air from. The 3 steel donuts will be here today that I'm gonna use as transition flares for the ITB's,...and that'll be the next thing that I'll focus on. I already have the idea in my head, and to a certain extent will cover up a lot of the iron lung, but I think I'll like it better than the 6 individual filters, and they'll get ram air from the front now that the intercooler is gone.
sam_0580-jpg.585375.jpg

See the orange 90 degree coupler? Gone. That whole tube that travels from one side to the other is out of there. So,.when I stick that filter in the left front fender, I'll build a drop mouth to sit right there in that cavity to force frontal air into another box that the filter will sit in.
Vrooom,Vrooom, phcking vrooom.

I'm also gonna fix those ugly assed oil lines this time around too.
 
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Wait no more turbo what did i miss?...whats going to power it besides the I6 ?

A roller cam 114 L/S w/ a 558 intake, and a 530 exhaust lift, and a 230/224 duration @.050 cam really likes an independent runner BMW M3 intake.

Since Mike's got almost 11:1 compression, it will run great.


Roller cammed, Independent Throttle Body in line Ford sixes aren't common, but they certainly come up with the goods.

Since Mikes got the best MegaSquirt engine mappers around to help him, it was an easy step.


An example of how hard it is to map an I6 like his....


Australian Jason Stoodley's automatic EFi Cortina with an iteration of Mikes kind of X flow six


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W5y9m_mmpo



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic38oRfyJ_8



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kUx_a7KCJs



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyZ3i3SVAgY


Its the same thing over and over again. 297 flywheel to as much as 308 rwhp with just 265 cubic inches, 540 thou lift,


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54idNzU4Fpo



With Weber or Megasquirt EFI.




View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sWPzbfaIJQ


They later did the O2 Based AutoTune.They had it dialled in to the Ballpark Map with about 10 minutes work.


297 flywheel hp in just 10 minutes, 3 hp more than a stock E49 Six Pack 265.

 
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Just contacted Schneider cams about that very thing.
Seems to me that a Cam ground on a 114 centerline is far too lazy for a naturally aspirated engine. I've always thought that a 108-110 c/l was more in line with an engine that had to make the most of what it could with the current atmospheric pressure.

I'm having Jerry at Schneider look at the specs, and see if it's prudent to change that while it's apart.
 
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.... i should have swapped the cam in mine when i had the intake off, a 114 ls cam would be wonderful with my blower. I think it is prudent to check now rather than wonder what would have been better after its running.
 
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The cam guy at Schneider said he looks at emails in the AM,..and would take my call tomorrow.

( must be nice when you can say,..I'm busy,..I'll get to you when I get to you, and you'll like it or else.)

That leaves time for idle thought.

I'm gonna use silicone hose couplers to tie the stubbed pieces of exhaust tubing coming off the bottom of my future box to the throttle bodies. The dilemma is how big is too big?

Now follow me here...
The clamp flange of the tb is 2-3/16. The inside throat is 2" Exhaust tubing is measured in OD. 2" OD Exhaust tubing is actually 1-7/8". Mitigating to all of this is the fact that in order to "couple" the exhaust tubing to the throttle body, I'm gonna have to get 2-1/4" I'd silicone hose. That'll mean that there'll be a small gap to take up by the clamp on the TB, there'll be a giant assed 1/4" gap to try and clamp down on on the steel tubing...sounds like hackery to me.
 
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Did you notice?

I find it increasingly amusing that one of the biggest pricks on this forum carries this single red badge of irony:
upload_2018-2-6_22-51-37.png


10,000 likes?....How is this possible? This is me after all...:shrug:

Hero worship is so lame.....


:hail2:

but the like button, that's a whole nutther matter....

Because when you entered into this world, you didn't come equiped with a partial frontal labotomy. You actually think. For yourself, and others.

People like a little bit of Rat BA$+ard mixed with a good deal of logic. The funnist Rat BA$+ard pay out was paying out young Trey at 4eyed Pride, with a gentle reminder of how he was in his younger days. You did it wth Class, Mike.

And Smoke, Oh, youre Gonna Smoke!

I'd like to think of you in terms of a modern day Eddie Rickenbacker, self taught, aggressively pursing anything to do with the involvement with automobiles. And full of Initiative, Imagination, Individuality and Independence.

But I can't help thinking....if we'd all like you as much if we were stuck in the same life rafts...
 
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Oh, and stick with the 114. But get advice from Schnedier, and if that's what you want, it'll just hurt the idle, and not give you much extra torque.

Had a great discussion with Buddy Rawls on the horsepower per RPM thng that the Brabham's Buick 215 based F1 engine builder, Aussie Phil Irving used. Kiwi Bob Wallace at Lamborghini had the same philosphy, even with 375 hp at 8000 rpm from just a 239 cube V12.

Buddy said that his cams had dropped down to ratios like 3600 on some engines.

Buddy Rawls on Sep 11, 2011

https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=66242&p=508236#p508236

Your factored relationships are essentially an inlet capability versus displaced cylinder pumping volume ( CID and rpm) relationship.

You have established a criteria or fudge factor to address the actual port velocity issue (which is super important to the process), which is critical to the big picture.

One end of your spectrum is very restrictive motors ran at high rpms (extreme port velocities), the other end of the spectrum is very flow capable inlet inlets running at low rpms (slow port velocities).

I do not use multiple curves based on the level of modification, I go straight for the actual inlet and outlet parameters in comparison the displaced cylinder 'pumping' volume using a single set of equations, regardless of the build level.

Three quick examples, using your AI relationship, in my direct experience (camshaft customers) are

an FIA 289 build that mapped to a 4550 AI,
a 360 cid outlaw street car (nat asp) that mapped to around 3600 AI,
and a stock headed 125cc 289/302/E7 head on a 306 that ran around 5700 AI .

I have never used such a rating system, but it is cool to see how it fits in your criteria.

That wasn't an affirmation of my ideas, it was based on the desire to make a street engine map out to a 3600 Aspirations Index. Its existed with Phil Irving from his days with Vincent making V twin motorbike engines....not my idea.


250 cubic inches or so x 6000 rpm, all divided by 416.7 bhp at the flyheel would be a perfect low 3600. Just what a 14:1 compression ratio NASCAR does with its Apriations index. 355 cubes * 8000 rpm/ divided by 790 hp is 3600 or so.


You won't get a it with a 106 or even 109 Lobe Separation angle. An ITB is a hard set up to master, and when the Charger E49 and the racing XU1 Torana GTR 202 got the same Webers as the Charger, they all got low lift, narrow lobe seperation cams with lot s and lots of duration. If they'd gone back on duration, up in lift, and wider in lobe split, then they would have made a lot more extra power. Pretty soon, the best cams were aftermarket cams with less 50 thou duration, more peak lift, and wider lobes. Same thing happened with the late Ivan Tighes XK Six cylinder camshafts.

angle_determination_chart.jpg


The ages old Vizard recomended cam lobe center angles.....they work on some engines, but not on an overscavanging, over exhausted, very low air speed intake ITB in line six.

A 42 cubic inch cylinder, and 1.84" intake valve plots a 23 or so, and 106 LSA on the green line of the graph. Your welcome to use the half century of Schnieder cam grainding experience to grind a cam to a 106 lobe.


https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63620&p=512487#p512487

Buddy Rawls said:
You have to really watch the stuff that follows David Vizards articles, write-ups and books. there are some liberties taken that do not necessarily apply globally in all instances.

Lasly, the late Joe Mondello http://www.mondello.com/page28.html
 
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Did you notice?

I find it increasingly amusing that one of the biggest pricks on this forum carries this single red badge of irony:
upload_2018-2-6_22-51-37.png


10,000 likes?....How is this possible? This is me after all...:shrug:


I believe I've solved this. It took 0.3 seconds of CPU time at nominal speed. Probability of accuracy is over 85%:

You're like the kid that walks down the hallway that the other kids give their lunch money to so that they don't get :poo: from you for the rest of the day. :p
 
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I believe I've solved this. It took 0.3 seconds of CPU time at nominal speed. Probability of accuracy is over 85%:

You're like the kid that walks down the hallway that the other kids give their lunch money to so that they don't get :poo: from you for the rest of the day. :p

Hey,...It'd be different if I didn't just gush over it. I genuinely find it funny. There has got to be.....what....5-6 guys that hate me so bad here that they have it set to permanently ignore what I say., yet I got 10k likes.

It's the same way in reality...there are those that like me,...and there are guys that'd just as soon punch me when I walk up.

Actually, you could strip the "like-o-meter" completely from my screen name for all the difference it makes to me. Coming from somebody that cannot imagine the equivalency of a "like" in a real life conversation.
I think that would have to go something like this:

* Me and another guy hanging around in my garage:

Me: I just finished the throttle body mock up, whatdya think?
Hanging around Dude: (No words,....just a Thumb up.)
Me: I think I'm gonna go ahead, and use the exhaust donuts and make a box to cover them up, instead of using six individual filters, whatya think?
Hanging around Dude: ( No words,....just a thumb up.)
Me: Ya 'spose that I could get away with a 3" cone style filter and put it in a one gallon paint can w/ a feed tube ducting ram air to it from under the bumper? a one gallon paint can may be a little tight around the outside ...depends on the circumference of the filter. What do you think?

Hanging around Dude: "Cool!"

Me: Please leave.

My problem is that I expect a real answer, input, criticism, or advice when I ask a question, not a F.B. pat on the head.
 
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I use the 'like button' more to let someone know I'm pay'n attention to the thread, don't look at it as applause at the end of a thread, it's a sign they are paying attention and not just skimming over waiting for the next 'get over it' or grammar correction you are known for. Most of the stuff here and on other 'build' threads are magazine quality work with a real word connection to the builder. I make little stabs and pokes at your stuff but thats because I admire your work and even the 'I don't like this so I'm going to change it several times' mini projects.
I do keep some thoughts to myself only 'cause I think you have more experience in that area, like the brake booster swap, I thought to myself ' would a master cylinder change work better than a bigger booster' or the air filtering situation, I think the open plenum box would better serve you than the individual filters.
I also think that most here, well ok all here likely know more than I when it comes to building crap.
I came here to learn, I have found (not surprisingly) that I knew less that I thought and I can honestly say I am at least slightly smarter now.
Important things I have learned:
Proof read before I post
Check for codes
Make sure small animals are not present when doing air flow experiments
And it will cost more than you think to ship you a pair
 
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