I've Decided To Build A 351/400

[from6to8]

12k-13k worth of plans... haven't even talked about suspension.

I see ALOT of frivolous spending listed there.

I have suspension work done on the car and has been for years. Now there might be more that I can do later on so fill me in with what I will need or would be good to do.

I have subframe connectors welded in, Upper and lower control arms on the rear, complete front end work done less than 2 yrs ago. New shocks and struts ( tokiko hp blues), ball joints and bushings on front end, sway bar end links. I think I'm listing everything. And keep in mind this is not a track car at all just a weekend driver. And not even driven everyday of the weekend. NOw I can see driving the car more often definitely but mostly a few times of week at most.

Frivolous lol? Help me out with anything I left out engine wise too that I'd need to get.

Thanks

 

[addermk2]

If you think you'll be happy with 400hp, there is no point in even building an engine.

A stock 351w will handle that power for years and years without even a hiccup

 

[madspeed]

so much build for so little gain? Pick up a 351 truck engine, swap the cam, and call it a day. Use the money saved for more fun things like beers and babes

 

[from6to8]

If you think you'll be happy with 400hp, there is no point in even building an engine.

A stock 351w will handle that power for years and years without even a hiccup

I'd have to build one to get 400
My current motor is at 300 HP

 

[from6to8]

so much build for so little gain? Pick up a 351 truck engine, swap the cam, and call it a day. Use the money saved for more fun things like beers and babes

I'd consider that if I know more along the lines of what you are referring to lol. I'm sure you mean a non modular 351 and it doing one of my mentions in the original post of options for obtaining a 351 block. In that case yes I've considered that and it's not a dead idea yet

And gaining over 100 HP is little gain lol? I'm probably not even close to you guys in what you use your car for. Most guys here might be track guys who want to go all out racing so understand how most of you would think different in what you would do. I consider myself one who wants a nice clean car but fast at the same time. I also like the sound/tone of the big cubes. Sure I can go SC or turbo probably for cheaper and be faster or the same or what have you. Too be honest I really don't like that turbo look under the hood and since I'm not a race guy, looks is somewhat important when I open my hood

I do however don't mind the SC look at all and is why I'm considering having it setup possibly for a blower later on down the road

 

[A5literMan]

Bud I mean no disrespect but damn.

A 205cc aluminum head on a 408 with a pump gas friendly compression ratio(9-11:1),a good cam,intake,exhaust,etc will make 500 + hp and torque. If you push the build parameters to more aggressive cam,intake,etc you can achieve 600hp and 550torque. These are flywheel dyno numbers. YOU DO NOT NEED A DART BLOCK for this. In matter of fact you can add boost,nitrous, ANYTHING and make another 1-200hp without any real concern. But you will need drop motor mounts,different oil pan,accessory-pulleys etc,distributor,etc for a 351 vs a 302 to fit/work. Machine work on a factory block i.e. Bore,hone,deck alignment,hot tank,balance the assembly,etc will run around 1k. Vs 3k for a dart 9.5" block.
Check out FordStrokers.com. You can see the difference between the two. For example he has a 408 stock roller block item there for 8k assembled carb to pan with good heads. You can option it for efi. A 9.5" dart shortblock minus cam,heads,etc is over 5k

A 363 dart built for n/a can make well over 500hp. The difference between the two is in the torque. Either way a dart build vs a stock block is at least 4K

 

[addermk2]

750hp from a completely untouched 1996 351w shortblock from an F250.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

check out post # 113 when you get time and let me know what you think.............

This is the reason for one of those two comments.

this thread is going in circles. I've told you, as well as a dozen others that based on your description of your intended usage, and your continual flip flop as to whether or not money is an object......

Get a stock block and be done.

Here,..in one tidy bullet list.

• A stock block 5.0 will accommodate 347"
• A stock block 5.7 will accommodate 408"

A 347 left N/A will make a square 400/400 easy with supporting induction.
A 408 left N/A will make 100 more.

There is no need for you to upgrade to a Dart block if you are honestly going to use the car as you have described.

But since I'm bulletin'

• An 8.2 deck Dart block will accommodate 363 c.i. because it can be bored .125 over. When you do the math, and combine a 4.060 bore, and a 3.50 stroke, you get 363. Since that block could be max bored .125, a final displacement of 374 could be attained.
• A 9.5" deck Dart block will accommodate 440 c.i. Because it can be bored . 125 over. When you do the math, and combine a 4.030 bore, and a 4.00 stroke, you get 408. Since that block could be max bored .125", and stroker cranks are available at throws of 4.250, a final displacement of 454 could be attained.

But,....you're not gonna need that. By your own admission, you're not a track guy. The car sees little more than weekend duty, and barely that.
Elsewhere in other threads, you've indicated you have a budget. There is no " budget" with a Dart based build.

All you want is 400 hp. You now have two different recipes to get that. All w/o asking anyone to justify the difference in price between a dart block, and a JY Windsor, or the existing 5.0 under your hood.

 

[addermk2]

Here,..in one tidy bullet list.

• A stock block 5.0 will accommodate 347"
• A stock block 5.7 will accommodate 408"

I'm just splitting hairs here, buts lets say that a Stock 5.0 (8.2" deck) block has a stroke limit of 3.4" And a realistic bore limit of .040-.060. This will result in a 349-351 cubic inch engine. So we could also call it a 342 at stock bore.

Same for the 351w. It has a realistic stroke limit of 4" (which at .030 is indeed a 408) but you could still push out to .040 or .060. (410 - 414), or be at 402 at stock bore.

Now, that being said... I would never start a build, going .030. Even the engine I have now, when it gets rebuilt... I will hopefully be able to retain a stock bore piston. The reasoning for this is, should something ever happen inside the bore (cracked ring land, broken ring, detonation... etc), I will stoll have some room to open the block up before needing to replace it.

Now, as for stroking. I'll probably never build a stroker again either. Especially since i'm running a turbo, its fairly pointless.

 

[1990slow50H]

Sell car buy terminator. The end

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

I'm just splitting hairs here, buts lets say that a Stock 5.0 (8.2" deck) block has a stroke limit of 3.4" And a realistic bore limit of .040-.060. This will result in a 349-351 cubic inch engine. So we could also call it a 342 at stock bore.

Same for the 351w. It has a realistic stroke limit of 4" (which at .030 is indeed a 408) but you could still push out to .040 or .060. (410 - 414), or be at 402 at stock bore.

Now, that being said... I would never start a build, going .030. Even the engine I have now, when it gets rebuilt... I will hopefully be able to retain a stock bore piston. The reasoning for this is, should something ever happen inside the bore (cracked ring land, broken ring, detonation... etc), I will stoll have some room to open the block up before needing to replace it.

Now, as for stroking. I'll probably never build a stroker again either. Especially since i'm running a turbo, its fairly pointless.

Well,...you're right. You are splitting hairs. The point was more to give reference to c.i. yield at a certain bore/stroke so I could tie a power number to it.

And I agree with you on the bore thing. I bored mine .187.

Just big enough so a .090 wall sleeve could be pressed back in place and leave me with a stock bore to start with. The only reason I had to bore it .020 was so I could get a ring set. Nobody makes a good ring for a 3.68 bore. Everybody makes one for a 3.700.

 

[from6to8]

Bud I mean no disrespect but damn.

A 205cc aluminum head on a 408 with a pump gas friendly compression ratio(9-11:1),a good cam,intake,exhaust,etc will make 500 + hp and torque. If you push the build parameters to more aggressive cam,intake,etc you can achieve 600hp and 550torque. These are flywheel dyno numbers. YOU DO NOT NEED A DART BLOCK for this. In matter of fact you can add boost,nitrous, ANYTHING and make another 1-200hp without any real concern. But you will need drop motor mounts,different oil pan,accessory-pulleys etc,distributor,etc for a 351 vs a 302 to fit/work. Machine work on a factory block i.e. Bore,hone,deck alignment,hot tank,balance the assembly,etc will run around 1k. Vs 3k for a dart 9.5" block.
Check out FordStrokers.com. You can see the difference between the two. For example he has a 408 stock roller block item there for 8k assembled carb to pan with good heads. You can option it for efi. A 9.5" dart shortblock minus cam,heads,etc is over 5k

A 363 dart built for n/a can make well over 500hp. The difference between the two is in the torque. Either way a dart build vs a stock block is at least 4K

I see I see

This is the reason for one of those two comments.

this thread is going in circles. I've told you, as well as a dozen others that based on your description of your intended usage, and your continual flip flop as to whether or not money is an object......

Get a stock block and be done.

Here,..in one tidy bullet list.

• A stock block 5.0 will accommodate 347"
• A stock block 5.7 will accommodate 408"

A 347 left N/A will make a square 400/400 easy with supporting induction.
A 408 left N/A will make 100 more.

There is no need for you to upgrade to a Dart block if you are honestly going to use the car as you have described.

But since I'm bulletin'

• An 8.2 deck Dart block will accommodate 363 c.i. because it can be bored .125 over. When you do the math, and combine a 4.060 bore, and a 3.50 stroke, you get 363. Since that block could be max bored .125, a final displacement of 374 could be attained.
• A 9.5" deck Dart block will accommodate 440 c.i. Because it can be bored . 125 over. When you do the math, and combine a 4.030 bore, and a 4.00 stroke, you get 408. Since that block could be max bored .125", and stroker cranks are available at throws of 4.250, a final displacement of 454 could be attained.

But,....you're not gonna need that. By your own admission, you're not a track guy. The car sees little more than weekend duty, and barely that.
Elsewhere in other threads, you've indicated you have a budget. There is no " budget" with a Dart based build.

All you want is 400 hp. You now have two different recipes to get that. All w/o asking anyone to justify the difference in price between a dart block, and a JY Windsor, or the existing 5.0 under your hood.

I will call the my builder tonight and we will delve further into talks that we had originally when I created this thread. I now know a whole lot more about the blocks, ect from talking with him and you guys as well.

400 minimum yes.
450-500 ofcourse sounds better and I truly can't say I'd love it or hate it more over 400, I guess that's just a chance I'll take upon what we decide. Certainly I'd like to be able to save as much money as I can but also I have learned to do it right and the way you want it hopefully the first time. He explained how he can get more out of a 351 Dart using a shorter crank. To be honest I don't want to misquote him at all because he speaks on a level that ofcourse I am not totally on his level, but I understand the concept of what he's trying to say. I'll learn as time goes. So from the start of this thread till now, I certainly know a whole lot more and yes you guys have helped me understand a lot of the languo as well. He and I will talk tonight and I'm sure I will have a better understanding of the options he presented as well and will decide probably in a few weeks which way to go. And I'm certainly going to consider all of what I have to change and making things fit/work, ect.

 

[from6to8]

Sell car buy terminator. The end

I actually considered it in another thread when asking about modular vs pushrods

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

I see I see

I will call the my builder tonight and we will delve further into talks that we had originally when I created this thread. I now know a whole lot more about the blocks, ect from talking with him and you guys as well.

400 minimum yes.
450-500 ofcourse sounds better and I truly can't say I'd love it or hate it more over 400, I guess that's just a chance I'll take upon what we decide. Certainly I'd like to be able to save as much money as I can but also I have learned to do it right and the way you want it hopefully the first time. He explained how he can get more out of a 351 Dart using a shorter crank. To be honest I don't want to misquote him at all because he speaks on a level that ofcourse I am not totally on his level, but I understand the concept of what he's trying to say. I'll learn as time goes. So from the start of this thread till now, I certainly know a whole lot more and yes you guys have helped me understand a lot of the languo as well. He and I will talk tonight and I'm sure I will have a better understanding of the options he presented as well and will decide probably in a few weeks which way to go. And I'm certainly going to consider all of what I have to change and making things fit/work, ect.

Sounds to me like your builder lets his ass talk as much as his mouth.

 

[from6to8]

Sounds to me like your builder lets his ass talk as much as his mouth.

I'm sure I'm misquoting what he said/meant.

Using a shorter crank vs a longer crank because of the big bore, therefore the advantage being.............?????????? Can't totally recall what that advantage is but I will take notes tonight

and that was comparing a few setups one vs the other. I believe to the effect of stroke vs big bore because I originally wanted to do a 331 stroker.

 

[TOOLOW91]

gotcha.
What's the cost of the Dart 8.2?

Where is he located? See there would be a difference though because if I went 363 N/A then I surely wouldn't be at his numbers

I am considering having even the 400 setup for a blower but highly unlikely because I'd want to use every part that I will have for this setup and I may have to get another powerpipe if I went SC later on right? I say that because ofcourse I can have the 363 setup for a blower and maybe 2-4 years I might get one. I think I'd surlely be happy with 400 + HP on the low side doing a 400. I can say that because even on good days my 302 pulled real good and strong at that's just at 300 Hp for over 10 years

You were talking about a decent compression all motor build . At 10.5:1 11:1 on pump gas you should have no problem seeing 500-530 hp at the tire . With the right cam . I'm in New York City .

Touching on the bore subject on a dart block the big bore is 4.125 vs a stock 4.00 bore . The dart can be punched all the way to 4.180 before it'd need a sleeve .

@A5literMan I really don't think the torque curve is gonna be as diff as you think if he were going big bore stroker on a 363 vs say a 408 I couldn't be wrong though .


Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

 

[TOOLOW91]

And by no means am I discrediting a 351 9.5 stock block. I know for a fact they will go high 8s .

I have a friend doing it right now with a 357w , gt40 lower intake , downs upper with a custom grind cam , turbo and a power glide .

I have been down the road of having to re do it over and over again hence my 100 plus page thread . So that's why I suggest the big stuff right off the bat . Just my experience . I'm not too big or too good for stock block builds I just like to give insite from my personal experience .

Just so you know

9.5 deck is a 351
8.2 is a 302

My dart shp was 1800 bucks

If you went all the way up to an iron eagle its get over 2k mark for a block . An shp will handle 1k hp no issue even woody at ford strokers attests to that .


Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

 

[A5literMan]

You were talking about a decent compression all motor build . At 10.5:1 11:1 on pump gas you should have no problem seeing 500-530 hp at the tire . With the right cam . I'm in New York City .

Touching on the bore subject on a dart block the big bore is 4.125 vs a stock 4.00 bore . The dart can be punched all the way to 4.180 before it'd need a sleeve .

@A5literMan I really don't think the torque curve is gonna be as diff as you think if he were going big bore stroker on a 363 vs say a 408 I couldn't be wrong though .


Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

Agreed. Not a huge difference but with the typical build 3.4" vs 4.0" stroke motor there usually is going to be 1+ ft lbs per extra cubic inch. So say...50 ft lbs more peak to peak and the bigger motor will have it lower in the rpm range. Forced induction motors tend to like the smaller stroke motors though. Excluding nick lol.

 

[from6to8]

You were talking about a decent compression all motor build . At 10.5:1 11:1 on pump gas you should have no problem seeing 500-530 hp at the tire . With the right cam . I'm in New York City .

Touching on the bore subject on a dart block the big bore is 4.125 vs a stock 4.00 bore . The dart can be punched all the way to 4.180 before it'd need a sleeve .

@A5literMan I really don't think the torque curve is gonna be as diff as you think if he were going big bore stroker on a 363 vs say a 408 I couldn't be wrong though .


Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

How bout dem Giants

You confused me when you said touching on the big bore subject. I get that you said a big bore Dart is 4.125 and stock is 4.00. I'm assuming you mean a stock 351 or do you mean a Dart stock or Dart 8.2 ( Dart stock and Dart 8.2 is the same?)

 

[from6to8]

And by no means am I discrediting a 351 9.5 stock block. I know for a fact they will go high 8s .

I have a friend doing it right now with a 357w , gt40 lower intake , downs upper with a custom grind cam , turbo and a power glide .

I have been down the road of having to re do it over and over again hence my 100 plus page thread . So that's why I suggest the big stuff right off the bat . Just my experience . I'm not too big or too good for stock block builds I just like to give insite from my personal experience .

Just so you know

9.5 deck is a 351
8.2 is a 302

My dart shp was 1800 bucks

If you went all the way up to an iron eagle its get over 2k mark for a block . An shp will handle 1k hp no issue even woody at ford strokers attests to that .


Sent from my iPhone using my fingers while my auto correct makes me seem illiterate

I think that's what my builder was trying to establish with me is to go ahead and kind of future plan even though I will more than likely be happy with the build for a long, long time. Going big bore and not having to use as long as a crank that he would have to use using stroke to achieve the goal. Something along those lines.