Forced Induction On3 turbo on stock 89 with 87K miles --suggestions

T

tank76

Member
Oct 21, 2022
32
6
18
Warner Robins GA
#1
Hello all,
So I'll start by saying, I am not looking to have the worlds fastest drag mustang just a fun street machine.

The car is an 89 GT, 87,000 miles, stock motor aside from the following
-CAI
-full exhaust catless H pipe no headers
plugs wires cap rotor coil
-3:73 gears

The car has a very tired AOD and I already have all the parts to put a wide ratio TKX transmission in it

What I'd like to do is get around 450-480 to the wheels with the turbo set up. I already plan on upgrading the fuel system, electronics, etc. Once the stocker lets go then i'll upgrade.

The car does have some minor issues that I wanted to address before adding the On3 kit. (valve cover oil leaks, cooling, etc) and I just got a free GT40 Ford exploder intake for it. With this, What should I do, seeing how I need to fix the oil leaks and am upgrading the cooling system anyhow.

a. stock cam, get GT40 heads since I have the intake, new pushrods and roller rockers new head gaskets and ARP hardware, all new top end seals
b. keep the stock heads, stock cam, new head gaskets, seals, hardware add the GT 40 intake. freshen up the stock heads springs, rockers pushrods etc.
c. some variant of aftermarket head AFR-165's? mild cam, GT40 intake all new head gaskets hardware seals etc

I know that 3:73 gears are not ideal for a turbo but its what I have and there is only one real rear end guy located around me
I also know that the AOD is good with a turbo set up but it is beat and I already have the parts for the TKX and like banging through gears. As stated I am not looking for an all out drag car just a fun street brawler

Thanks
 

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#2
I'll be honest, i like nothing about your plan other than the TKX.
It's hard enough to get that power level to be reliable on a stock block when you plan it out meticulously and use all high end parts.
Just slapping a bunch of low end junk (other than the AFR's, i like them, but not how you plan on using them) on there and stuffing it with boost is surely going to end in disaster.

And yes i know there are youtube vidoes where guys slap turbo's on mustangs and document beating on the car and drag racing.
Just remember, they do youtube videos for money and notoriety, they are completely willing to blow the whole thing up (which oddly enough can make them more money), are you willing to do the same? I'm sure as hell not.
I'm not taking those kinds of risks, especially with an 87,000 mile car, which is kinda rare at this point.
 
#3
Car is not cherry by any stretch of the imagination it needs a paint job which I am doing and a new deck lid, the one I have is rusted out. I will say that sure the engine is in pretty decent shape all things considered. But it's leaking oil and needs pretty much the whole coolant system replaced. Aside from being stock, the thing was not well taken care of until I got it and gave it a much needed tune up. If you don't like my plans, then please enlighten me on what you would do. That is why I am here. I want to have fun on the street and not get beat by Toyota Corollas, yes a Toyota Corolla it was a GR but I mean DAMN! This is a mustang. I just figured I'd use the stock block up and then build it. I have had multiple mustangs an 03 Cobra A 14 GT500. I sold them because everyone in their grandmother had something similar I am 46 yrs old and wanted something that I wanted growing up as a kid --which was a 5.0, money isn't really an object at this point but I don't want to do dumb :poo: either. I got a free intake and was gonna fix what was broken and let her rip -- that is why I am here, I want the car to not be a dud by todays standards, 450 :poo: I am sure 480'is very ambitious on the stock 89 internals but honestly I was just throwing numbers out there -- so you don't like my plans, understood completely but tell me what you would do then.
 
#4
tank76 said:
Car is not cherry by any stretch of the imagination it needs a paint job which I am doing and a new deck lid, the one I have is rusted out. I will say that sure the engine is in pretty decent shape all things considered. But it's leaking oil and needs pretty much the whole coolant system replaced. Aside from being stock, the thing was not well taken care of until I got it and gave it a much needed tune up. If you don't like my plans, then please enlighten me on what you would do. That is why I am here. I want to have fun on the street and not get beat by Toyota Corollas, yes a Toyota Corolla it was a GR but I mean DAMN! This is a mustang. I just figured I'd use the stock block up and then build it. I have had multiple mustangs an 03 Cobra A 14 GT500. I sold them because everyone in their grandmother had something similar I am 46 yrs old and wanted something that I wanted growing up as a kid --which was a 5.0, money isn't really an object at this point but I don't want to do dumb :poo: either. I got a free intake and was gonna fix what was broken and let her rip -- that is why I am here, I want the car to not be a dud by todays standards, 450 :poo: I am sure 480'is very ambitious on the stock 89 internals but honestly I was just throwing numbers out there -- so you don't like my plans, understood completely but tell me what you would do then.
Click to expand...
I will add, I'm not trying to come off as a jerk so please don't take offense
 
#5
The internals actually last, it's the block that flexes or cracks under load.
I'd start off simple and build from there.
Do a quality heads/cam/intake setup.
For me, that would consist of AFR 165's or some type of twisted wedges.
A custom cam, edelbrock RPMII intake, 30lb injectors, roller rockers, new pushrods, 80mm (or bigger) meter for 30's.
Also a 155lph pump if you think you will leave it NA, if not a high pressure 255lph pump.
BTW, i'm quoting the highest performing NA combo i've ever seen on a stock bottom end, it made 359rwhp, now that was a car built at a friends shop that did this for at least 25 years, so you have to expect less than that. But assume 325rwhp+.

Then if that didn't cut it for power (mind you, that's about 125rwhp more than stock, as least), i'd do a vortech setup to get you in the 400 to 450 range. You would also need to use 42lb injectors.

The turbo is just going to be a nightmare all around.
There is a reason why people suggest the nicest jack stands when someone goes with a turbo kit, it's because you will be looking at them a lot.
And the on3 stuff is known to come with junk in the base kit.

Guys use explorer and gt40 iron parts and that's fine, but i don't think those parts are worth the effort. They would net you about 50 to 65rwhp. But it takes the same amount of work to install it all.
 
#6
If you plan on keeping your block in one piece, your gonna need more parts then you mentioned.
Try a partial block fill( up to the frezze plugs) front and mid motor plates, and a way to tune it( aftermarket ecu, a professional tuner)
These are just a few of many parts for successfully obtaining your rear wheel goal.
Oh if you like YouTube then watch racers who built many ford smalblocks, try Ben Alameda racing he has built and raced for years and is very knowledgeable..
 
#7
2000xp8 said:
The internals actually last, it's the block that flexes or cracks under load.
I'd start off simple and build from there.
Do a quality heads/cam/intake setup.
For me, that would consist of AFR 165's or some type of twisted wedges.
A custom cam, edelbrock RPMII intake, 30lb injectors, roller rockers, new pushrods, 80mm (or bigger) meter for 30's.
Also a 155lph pump if you think you will leave it NA, if not a high pressure 255lph pump.
BTW, i'm quoting the highest performing NA combo i've ever seen on a stock bottom end, it made 359rwhp, now that was a car built at a friends shop that did this for at least 25 years, so you have to expect less than that. But assume 325rwhp+.

Then if that didn't cut it for power (mind you, that's about 125rwhp more than stock, as least), i'd do a vortech setup to get you in the 400 to 450 range. You would also need to use 42lb injectors.

The turbo is just going to be a nightmare all around.
There is a reason why people suggest the nicest jack stands when someone goes with a turbo kit, it's because you will be looking at them a lot.
And the on3 stuff is known to come with junk in the base kit.

Guys use explorer and gt40 iron parts and that's fine, but i don't think those parts are worth the effort. They would net you about 50 to 65rwhp. But it takes the same amount of work to install it all.
Click to expand...
That is very doable, my initial goal was to keep the car NA but I heard from a friend that the on3 kit was solid. I'm not sold on it just seemed the best bang for the buck -- car is an absolute dog right now compression check and leak down were all good so I am assuming the lack of power is the AOD I have adjusted the TV cable appropriately but it just seems weak. I completely Understand that the block is the weak point they split under the cam at high power. I heard a new / better balancer can help with that to an extent. What would you recommend for a cam. I don't want to run into any PtoV issues but plan on checking that anyhow.
 
#8
nickyb said:
If you plan on keeping your block in one piece, your gonna need more parts then you mentioned.
Try a partial block fill( up to the frezze plugs) front and mid motor plates, and a way to tune it( aftermarket ecu, a professional tuner)
These are just a few of many parts for successfully obtaining your rear wheel goal.
Oh if you like YouTube then watch racers who built many ford smalblocks, try Ben Alameda racing he has built and raced for years and is very knowledgeable..
Click to expand...
Ok good to know, I'll check him out
 
#9
For me, I'm all about customs cams. These guys use Ed Curtis, but it sounds like that has been a pain lately. I had a friend that used to spec them out for me. Expect $400, which is kinda steep, but it is what it is.
A better balancer is always good, especially since the original is probably dry rotted and most likely will come apart anyway, but I still don't think you should exceed 450rwhp.

Don't forget too, a fox is a driver's car. No antilock or traction control. So traction and driving are arguably more important than power. I bet the trans swap nets you a full second in the quarter.

To be clear, as I've gotten older, I've begun to think the first mods to a fox should be a maximum motorsports suspension package and rear disc's. Along with a 5 lug swap with 94/95 spindles. I also believe that if you have to sell the car, those things add value and power mods do not, since pretty much nobody trusts anyone else's engine work.
Not to mention all the power in the world isn't going to help if you are in a ditch.
 
#10
2000xp8 said:
For me, I'm all about customs cams. These guys use Ed Curtis, but it sounds like that has been a pain lately. I had a friend that used to spec them out for me. Expect $400, which is kinda steep, but it is what it is.
A better balancer is always good, especially since the original is probably dry rotted and most likely will come apart anyway, but I still don't think you should exceed 450rwhp.

Don't forget too, a fox is a driver's car. No antilock or traction control. So traction and driving are arguably more important than power. I bet the trans swap nets you a full second in the quarter.

To be clear, as I've gotten older, I've begun to think the first mods to a fox should be a maximum motorsports suspension package and rear disc's. Along with a 5 lug swap with 94/95 spindles. I also believe that if you have to sell the car, those things add value and power mods do not, since pretty much nobody trusts anyone else's engine work.
Not to mention all the power in the world isn't going to help if you are in a ditch.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Suspension is next after the transmission install. At this point I'm thinking about just pulling the motor, changing all the seals etc. so if I can't get a custom grind for whatever reason are there any off the shelf cams you'd recommend with the 165s
 
#11
Hope I don't thread hijack here but...
2000xp8 said:
For me, that would consist of AFR 165's or some type of twisted wedges.
A custom cam, edelbrock RPMII intake, 30lb injectors, roller rockers, new pushrods, 80mm (or bigger) meter for 30's.
Also a 155lph pump if you think you will leave it NA, if not a high pressure 255lph pump.
Click to expand...
This is exactly me with a 255lph pump. Car is also new to me and I have been trying to figure out "what if" options for what to do next. What Vortex would you recommend for this kind of setup and is there anything outside of their kits that needs to be done to support the supercharger?
 
#12
I have an on3 kit on a built 331, TW heads, comp cam, systemax intake, and all the supporting stuff. If I had to do it again I would've just turboed a stock block. I could build 10 of them for the money I have in this one and have the same power. Heads are important but not as much as you may think. The turbo will be forcing air in...instead of the engine having to pull it in. I would spend some money on good roller rockers ( 1.7 for a stock cam ) and better springs and push rods. With the beefed up valvetrain you'll be able to spin it a little higher. With my set up I can only run about 8lbs of boost and the block is almost maxed out. It's a good reliable car but with my mods I could easily turn the boost up north of 600 but the block could suffer.

If I had to do it all over again I would put the ceramic ball bearing on3 kit on a stock engine with beefed up valvetrain, ARP head studs ( you can install head studs, one by one, without pulling the heads or doing the head gaskets ), and fuel system. You can get more power by turning the boost up. The common threat is lifting a head and blowing the head gasket. The pistons will hold up for a while with a good moderate tune that keeps some of the heat out.

There's a guy here in Fredericksburg VA that runs a turboed stock 5.0 and beats the snot out of it. It's held up and is every bit as fast as my car on a fraction of the moolah.

Braking would be my focus even with 200hp to the wheels. These cars factory brakes suck.

Get used to getting beat. I've had some stock cars shock the hell out of me. We live at a time where camrys have 300hp with tuned shift strategies, traction control, variable camshaft timing, direct injection, and a fresh manufacturers warranty. A tesla model 3 can have 455hp and instant torque. Stock we have traction issues. Double that and traction is non existent on the street without good suspension and tires.
 
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#13
90sickfox said:
I have an on3 kit on a built 331, TW heads, comp cam, systemax intake, and all the supporting stuff. If I had to do it again I would've just turboed a stock block. I could build 10 of them for the money I have in this one and have the same power. Heads are important but not as much as you may think. The turbo will be forcing air in...instead of the engine having to pull it in. I would spend some money on good roller rockers ( 1.7 for a stock cam ) and better springs and push rods. With the beefed up valvetrain you'll be able to spin it a little higher. With my set up I can only run about 8lbs of boost and the block is almost maxed out. It's a good reliable car but with my mods I could easily turn the boost up north of 600 but the block could suffer.

If I had to do it all over again I would put the ceramic ball bearing on3 kit on a stock engine with beefed up valvetrain, ARP head studs ( you can install head studs, one by one, without pulling the heads or doing the head gaskets ), and fuel system. You can get more power by turning the boost up. The common threat is lifting a head and blowing the head gasket. The pistons will hold up for a while with a good moderate tune that keeps some of the heat out.

There's a guy here in Fredericksburg VA that runs a turboed stock 5.0 and beats the snot out of it. It's held up and is every bit as fast as my car on a fraction of the moolah.

Braking would be my focus even with 200hp to the wheels. These cars factory brakes suck.

Get used to getting beat. I've had some stock cars shock the hell out of me. We live at a time where camrys have 300hp with tuned shift strategies, traction control, variable camshaft timing, direct injection, and a fresh manufacturers warranty. A tesla model 3 can have 455hp and instant torque. Stock we have traction issues. Double that and traction is non existent on the street without good suspension and tires.
Click to expand...
Thanks this is all good info. I am kind of on the fence about the turbo. I have a few oil leaks and am going to be replacing the coolant system and the trans with a TKX first. Your plan above with the stock block and upgraded valve train was my original plan to begin witn. But I was going to do head gaskets / arp studs for piece of mind. I received a gt40 intake for free so I was going to throw that on it. But then I started thinking, if I remove the heads anyway why not go with a better HCI: so it's a slippery slope. How do you like the on3 kit is it good? As for a tune I am going to go pro M. I know many individuals will say Holley or megasquit but honestly I feel the most comfortable with mass air. I look at speed density tables and am like wtf lol. I know there is much more support for Holley so I have to see what tuners are available in my area and what they recommend. Suspension and brakes are next before I make up my mind about anything. I need to get the car up to snuff in the other areas.

This is just a play toy for me I got it bone stock with 87 on it and a spent AOD for 5k. The guy that had the car just drove it, didn't tune it up didn't mod it but also didn't take care of it. Paint is white but needs work it is very thin, interior is pretty good overall and mechanically the ac is shot and it leaks everything but runs well no smoke etc. the rear window molding was missing which caused the trunk lid to rust in a few spots. I have a donor complete trunk lid for it . Thing is just a dog. I put gears in it 3:73s and still a dog. The point of this is that I am going to do things in steps before I get to the motor and ultimately decide it's fate.
 
#14
I love the on3 kit. I haven't had any problems since I put it on in 2015. Car pulls like a raped ape. I use megasquirt ( mspnp2 ). If I did it again it would be ms3 based like PimpX. I'm not a fan of Holley but have worked on several cars with their systems. They work well and have less of a learning curve. I just so happen to know a guru ( a91what ) that takes care of my tuning stuff for me.
 
#15
I dislike On3 due to the guy's shady business practices and the way he treated customers in the early days, and I know his kits came with garbage wastegates and flex couplings, all other couplings, and often his supply chain shifted with the wind, as did the quality of the rest of his parts. I would never personally buy one or a car with one from him on it. However, I do not keep up with the kit's quality anymore. So, things may have changed. Hell, if he was bought out by a big company with good quality & customer service, then I would reconsider my views.

Here's a guy that was always really well-regarded, and where I would start if I were going to do it again today: http://www.bgturbokits.com/babs/index.html
Hellion kits were too. You can probably still get them to make you one if you call and ask.

Listen to @90sickfox . The common wisdom on the power capability of the stock block and internals is that it maxes at 450-500 rwhp. Also, keep it under 6000 RPM. What you want is an affordable top-end that will get you to 260 rwhp. Then, with an intercooler and a tune, you should be able to double that power on pump gas with up to 15psi. You're looking for a 67-72mm turbo on a T4 or T6 flange. If I came across an old Garrett or Master Power T70, I'd snag it because that's just about optimal for a stock 302.

The beauty in keeping things affordable is that you can replace everything in your setup with readily available and affordable parts. So, when you have a problem, you can be back on the road again in a couple months, instead of a year or more...

Extra displacement and a high quality top-end (AFRs, custom cam, high dollar intake) and expensive rotating assembly are what you need when trying to make naturally aspirated power, but with a turbo they only make things more miserable when you're worried that you broke something.
 
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#17
Here's another interesting one:
cgfabrication.com

5.0 Mustang Turbo Kit

5.0 Mustang (mild) carbon steel turbo kit. 4 into 1, 1 3/4 tubular headers, 2 1/2 cross over with reinforced flex joint, 3" down pipe. Kit does not include turbo and wastegate. This hotside kit can accept a 61 Precision Turbo Head Unit up to a T-76 GTS turbo. All hot parts come with V-band...
cgfabrication.com cgfabrication.com
 
#18
All good info with many opinions. It sounds as if either way I go will help me achieve my goals. My plan was to run the stock block for now until its done or until I get bored with the power level that it can handle. That said, I would have to agree with "90sickfox" where I would feel alot worse if I dumped a bunch of money into the top end and a block first and then damaged the motor. I need to address the trans suspension and issues before I do anything else. I'd like to get it running perfect with no issues or leaks before I just compound any problems. My smog pump has started making some noise so I am planning on removing it also. the reason I haven't yet is because plugging those thermactor ports on the back of the heads seems like a royal PITA. As for the EGR Idk whether to leave it or eliminate it. As stated, aside from some coolant issues and a few oil leaks the car starts and idles well
 
#19
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