Engine Good Motor To Use?

MikeM2

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Mar 27, 2017
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My son and I are building a 90 Mustang road track car. we have the car and it's ready for a carb motor. It'll be a t-5 trans car. I have the t-5 out of an 84 Mustang that we intend to use.

We also have a good 302 out of a 79 Ford Truck. Is this motor good to start with for our use or are we better to find a newer H.O. motor that has the roller cam assembly? Looking for reliability and hoping for somewhere around 375 to 400 hp. Thoughts?

Thanks.
 
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Unsure about the motor, but an '84 T5 may not hold up for long behind a 400HP engine. It all depends on how you drive it...but seeing as you said road racing..that's a lot of power it will be seeing constantly
 
375-400 continuous HP from 302 cubic inches is hard to achieve on a small block ford pushrod engine without pressurized induction or an engine that will rev effortlessly to over 8000 RPM.

Your best bet is a 327-331 stroker engine with an extreme balance job done on it. The faster you spin an engine, the more critical the balance becomes.

See http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mufp-0610-engine-building-mistakes/
for some excellent engine building advice.

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Far too many people put a dab of this and a dollop of that, and then wonder why the car doesn't run worth beans. Then they think off the shelf computer chips will fix their mismatched parts problem. It won't

You have to have a plan for what kind of performance you want: Hot street. Street/Strip, Pure strip, Autocross or Road course. Each one requires a different strategy and a different set of components.. Mismatch the components and you’ll have a car that falls flat on its face when you demand performance.

Everyone thinks HP! HP! HP! and thinks that peak HP is what they need. Peak HP is great for a drag strip car when it has the proper gears and tires to get the car up into the high RPM range where it develops that high peak HP near the finish line. On a street car, that strategy will have Honda Accords outrunning you, because you will never get the engine RPMs high enough without running over everything in your path.

Here’ the strategy: Always remember that there are some tradeoffs in any engine combination. Most of us don’t have enough money to “have it all” as if it was possible by some masterful combination of parts and tuning.

The following recommendations are for 5 Speed Manual transmission cars without NO2 or pressurized induction, stock short block.
1.) Hot street: Broad flat torque curve, high velocity airflow in the intake and heads for best throttle response. Gears suitable for reasonable gas mileage and long road trips without excessive engine RPMs. Stand on the gas pedal from a rolling start to squeeze into that gap in traffic in front of you, and it jumps quick and hard to get you there. Max RPM’s are 5200-5500 RPM for best power. Lopey cams may sound cool, but run poorly in a low RPM street environment.
Use stock cam, stock, GT40 or mildly ported stock heads, Cobra or Explorer/GT40 intake, advanced timing, stock 19 lb injectors, stock fuel pump. Use some good 1.6 or 1.7 ratio roller rockers for extra punch. Use a King Cobra clutch, with stock iron or steel billet flywheel. MAF cars can use a 65 MM TB from the Explorer intake manifold and a 70MM MAF from a 94-95 Mustang. Drive train: 3:55 gears with soft tread compound tires. Use some Ford Racing unequal length headers, stock 2 1/4” cat pipe and some mufflers that don’t drone or get too much attention from the law enforcement or neighbors. The stock computer will handle all this with no problems and doesn’t need any help in 90% of the cases. No skinny or grossly undersize tires for the front: remember you still have to stop quickly in traffic. Make sure all the rubber bushings in the front and rear suspensions are in first class shape. Leave the emissions equipment intact and working. Removing or disabling it won’t get you any more HP or performance. Do not convert to carb or remove A/C: either one will reduce the resale value. Carb conversions cannot be titled for street use or get tags in some places. They definitely won’t pass smog inspections.

Street/strip: A little more slope to the torque curve with a gently sloping peak. Use slightly larger port volumes on intake and heads for more peak HP. Uses 3.55 or 3.73 gears to get the RPM’s up into a higher range quicker. Be prepared to sacrifice some low RPM throttle response in exchange for high RPM power. This by necessity will be a Mass Air or Mass Air conversion on 86-88 5.0 Mustangs, since stock speed density will not run well with the changes in engine airflow. Don’t get too crazy on any one engine part since you still have to drive the car on the street, and a mismatch can make street driving miserable.
Use stock or mild aftermarket cam, Ported GT 40, or 165-180 CC port volume aftermarket aluminum heads. Use a Trick Flow, Edelbrock Performer or equal intake manifold. Take a 73 MM aftermarket MAF calibrated for 24 lb injectors, and 24 lb injectors, 155 LPH fuel pump, Kirban adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Be prepared to shell out some $$$ for a custom burned chip using data gathered from a dyno run. Mass market chips will not get the job done. Use some Ford Racing unequal length headers, aftermarket 2 1/2” cat pipe and some mufflers that don’t drone or get too much attention from the law enforcement or neighbors. Drivetrain: expect the stock T5 to fail, so save your money for a super duty 5 speed trans. Tremec 3550, TKO 500 & TKO 600 are the best choices. Different gears in a stock T5 case work for some, but there is only so much power you can pass through a T5 in race mode before it breaks, even with stronger gears. Next are the Chassis mods: full length subframe connectors, different springs, different shocks, aftermarket lower and upper control arms with rubber or urethane bushings. Buy all the parts from someplace like Maximum Motorsports, Griggs or Steeda as a kit so that you know that all the parts fit and don’t argue with each other. Carry spare tires and wheels for the drag strip: skinnys for the front and drag radials for the rear. No skinnys for street driving! Over 85% of the breaking power is generated by the front tires, so skinnys won’t do the job in a panic stop situation. Disconnect the front anti-roll bar at the strip; reconnect it before you drive home. Leave the emissions equipment intact and working. Removing or disabling it won’t get you any more HP or performance. Do not convert to carb or remove A/C: either one will reduce the resale value. Carb conversions cannot be titled for street use or get tags in some places. They definitely won’t pass smog inspections.

Strip only: High RPM, High flow heads (185-215 CC port volume), wild cam, high flow intake manifold, 70 MM or larger TB, 80 MM or lager MAF, strip everything out of the car that doesn’t make it go faster. Carbs are OK if that’s what you want, but remember that as the temp/humidity/ barometric pressure/altitude changes, you have to re-jet and readjust the carb. EFI eliminates most of that with its built in compensation or you can tune of the fly with a high end Motes or Tweecer system combined with a wide band air/fuel ratio meter. Use custom headers, dumps and minimal mufflers. How fast you can go on 5 liters is a function of the skill level of the driver/mechanic and the size of your wallet.

TRAILER the car to the race track since it won’t be legal to drive it on the street. Drag slicks in the rear, skinnys up front, use 3.73 or bigger gears (4.xx) in the rear axle. Since you won’t be driving on long trips, the big gears with work with the high RPM power curve to get the best results. Drivetrain: TKO 500 & TKO 600 are the best choices. Different gears in a stock T5 case work for some, but there is only so much power you can pass through a T5 in race mode before it breaks, even with stronger gears. Next are the Chassis mods: full length subframe connectors, different springs, different shocks, aftermarket lower and upper control arms with rubber or urethane bushings. Buy all the parts from someplace like Maximum Motorsports, Griggs or Steeda as a kit so that you know that all the parts fit and don’t argue with each other. Remove the front sway bar, put an airbag in the rear spring of the side that spins the tire the most. Plan on a roll cage if you are truly serious about going fast: most strips will require it once you get to a certain ET range.

Autocross is a combination of Hot street engine and street strip chassis prep. The engine must accelerate quickly from low RPM and needs a broad, flat torque curve. Next are the Chassis mods: full length subframe connectors, different springs, different shocks, aftermarket lower and upper control arms with rubber or urethane bushings. Buy all the parts from someplace like Maximum Motorsports, Griggs or Steeda as a kit so that you know that all the parts fit and don’t argue with each other. Most of the time you’ll never hit third gear, so some 3.73 or bigger gears (4.xx) may help a lot. You’ll have to spend some more money on brakes since it kills brakes quickly. Rear disks, larger rotors up front, stainless steel brake lines, different brake pads. A 87-88 T Bird Turbo Coupe or SN 95 rear axle will be your best bet. Autocross will severely strain 1st & 2nd gears, so your T5 may take a premature dump. Save your money for a super duty 5 speed trans. Tremec 3550, TKO 500 & TKO 600 are the best choices.

All out road race is the most difficult of all: an engine that will run at high rpm hour after hour and never fail, yet pull hard out of the hairpin turns that will require a lot of torque at lower RPMs. In my opinion, guys that can successfully build a winning road race engine are the cream of the crop. Top this off with a chassis built for strip only duty, but with changes to the settings of springs, tires, roll bars brakes and shocks. It’s a whole other world of racing.
You’ll have to spend lots more money on brakes since it kills brakes quickly. Rear disks, larger rotors up front, stainless steel brake lines, different brake pads. Air ducting to cool the brake rotors will be a must. The brake rotors of cars on a high speed road course glow red after several hard laps of racing. Drivetrain: TKO 500 & TKO 600, and T56 close ratio are the best transmission choices.
 
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I guess I should clarify a couple things. This is just laid back fun track time. We spent enough on the car to get it 90% where we want it to be handling wise. That's more my area of understanding. The motor is something we could go to a builder for but as a father son project, we wanted to do it ourselves this time, knowing full well that this will not be the permanent engine in the car. If we don't get to the 400 hp mark, no problem. From what I've read, it should be achievable but if not, we'll just to with the best we can get. I've read a few places that we probably need a world class t5 and one that's been "improved" most likely for what we want to use it for. It'll do for now it that'll be on the list down the road. I just wondered if a 79 truck motor is worth building or if we're better off with a newer motor to start with. Sounds like maybe the newer motor would be better. I know the HO motor has a different firing order - was that due to the fuel injection though? We're going to run a carb. Thanks for all the responses so far.
 
The HO motor came out before the port fuel injection that was used from 1986 to 1995. Not sure why they changed the firing order, maybe it made more power...I really don't know.

Is the fuel injection still in the car? If it is I'd run it, but that's just me. I would think the EFI would handle road racing better.
 
Non-roller are pretty much paper weights unless you want to spend the money to convert.

EFI or Carb doesn't really matter much since you're tracking it. If you ever had plans to add boost, then EFI is the easy way and offers more options.

Carb gives you the option of a nice big Weiand blower which I'm all for 100% :nice: You could put this motor on non-roller block too but your cam profile will suck.

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Looks like a father and son project to me. :D
 
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I'm not showing him that picture!

I figured the motor was probably not 100% what we'd want. But it was here and free. We'll see what I can find from an Explorer around here. Looks like I'd be money ahead to find a 90 to 93 T-5 trans though. Going to start searching tonight.
 
When was the change over to a 50oz balance with the 5.0? I know it was in that era. That might be the older style 28oz. NBD, just something to keep in mind. Plus it not using a roller camshaft might be another consideration.

350 hp at the crank isn't really hard out of the engine. Though it will require better heads, cam and intake. Plus a good exhaust. A 600-650 carburetor is about the right size too.
 
The 79 engine is as good as any as a foundation for a flat tappet cam engine build. Remember there are no four bolt mains or other fancy 302 blocks unless you go after market. I have 95k miles and dozens of track passes on a 68 block with a 78 crank and rods, rebuilt in 1987, so would not hesitate to use an older block. With iron Gt40s its run high 12s.

That said, note that a 79 engine is different than what came in a 90 Mustang in that it requires the 28 oz balance for the crank, damper and flexplate or flywheel, has a two pc rear seal, etc. It was stock with a flat tappet cam and bolt down rockers. The heads have a lower stock compression ratio, say about 9 to1 on its best day, and smaller valve sizes. It will be hard to get to 275 hp w/o some better heads. As a flat tappet cam engine it will accept any old Ford Duraspark distributor up to 85, and does not need the steel cam gear. You should not use an 85 and up dist in a flat tapped engine. Nearly any front dress fits. My 82 is using front dress from an 80 Capri 255, and the C4 from a 79 Capri.

I have another 302 that was from a sunken houseboat and I picked it up out of the dirt in a trailer park at night. Good price. Now its also a nice, balanced, engine with gt40 heads.

An 85 and up engine will be set up for a roller cam, has a one pc rear seal crank, and has the 50 oz balance. Either block will accept stock or aftermarket heads with the right valvetrain parts.

In your situation,if I did not have the 90 Mustang engine where I could reuse the balancer, etc, I would build the 79 as a flat tappet, not spend much on the short block and put some dollars into some after market heads. Used iron Gt40 heads or explorer Gt40 p heads are easy and inexpensive. Even then, you may find a new or used set of aluminum heads is cost effective and includes all the valve and spring upgrades you will need.

As an example, I am currently swapping the iron Gt40s on my 82 and bolting some AFRS on the same old short block. We will see how much faster it goes!
 
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So if I understand this correctly, using a '79 302, I need a 28oz balancer. Are the flywheels all the same or do I need a flywheel for the 28oz balance as well? I have the flywheel that came with the motor but I found a Tremec 3550 that has a 50oz flywheel - can I use that flywheel or do I need to use the one I have? I assume the clutch will bolt up to either one so maybe I just use the one I have? Thanks.
 
So if I understand this correctly, using a '79 302, I need a 28oz balancer. Are the flywheels all the same or do I need a flywheel for the 28oz balance as well? I have the flywheel that came with the motor but I found a Tremec 3550 that has a 50oz flywheel - can I use that flywheel or do I need to use the one I have? I assume the clutch will bolt up to either one so maybe I just use the one I have? Thanks.
Flywheels are different as well.
 
You can use a T5 from a 99-04 v6 mustang and they're rated the same strength as the later v8 fox body T5 (300 ft-lb). If you want to keep the fox bellhousing, the input shaft and retainer will need to be changed. Although, you can use the v6 bellhousing and it will give you an 11" clutch (as opposed to the 10.5" clutch from the v8 fox body). You would have to go with an f150 flywheel, which are usually a little cheaper. They're available in 28 or 50 oz. The 99-04 v6 flywheel and pressure plate won't work, but the clutch disc is the same for the f150 and v6 mustang. There are a few more performance clutch disc options for the mustang.

If you're wanting some extra power without investing in a stroked 5.0, then you might want to consider a 351w...or heck, cleveland if you can find one lol. You will spend more in headers, intake, and oil pan. I know the later f150's had 351w that were either roller motors or the block was set up for roller (although a flat tappet cam was used.) I'm not sure on what years they started this. But you can convert any of them using link-bar style lifters. They're a little pricey.