Progress Thread Nicholase "lights out" build- TKX install
- Thread starter nicholase
- Start date
Yeah. It's tough to watch.
Thanks man. Little by little. I'll get there. I'll get somewhere anyway lol.
So I had a chance to start it up to check fuel pressure. Gotta say it sure started up nice and quick. Hasn't been touched in a week and it's pretty chilly out. 26°F. Has a nice high idle for about 10 seconds and then dropped to the preset 750 rpm and lopes away nice and solid. The fuel pressure was a touch low. I fine tuned it and re checked my low slope. It wasn't enough to correct it. So thats not the issue with adjusting the low injector slope. I decided to go back and verify my timing. Not sure if it could be associated, but I really didn't like how I felt after setting it.
To back up a little. I'm using a crank trigger set up. So timing is no longer adjusted by the distributor. To set the initial timing I disable the injectors, then crank the engine over and look for 10°BTDC while cranking. Seems easy enough. However it's incredibly difficult to see the timing mark when the light is flashing so slow (due to cranking not running). Every time the light flashed my eyes can't react quick enough to see the mark well. Probably a me issue. But I verified it again and feel it is 10° but it's just an uneasy feeling as I dont see it clear.
So I figured there must be a way to check it while running against what the PCM is telling it to be. I found the spark table and see at idle with 0 (or very low) load it should be 30°.
So I fired it up and I checked the timing on the balancer against what the spark table says it should be. To check what the PCM is commanding I click the COP tab, or Current Operating Point. The colorful table changes to this black and white table with the current spark advance shown in red. (Engine off while photo taken)
I found that I get descriptions of the various functions by hovering over them with the cursor. I saw this note:
To check that theory I checked the timing with the timing light hooked up and the COP tab checked. I can see the timing move in real time as I raise and lower RPM's on the table and it matches my timing light exactly. I'm seeing 30° at 1500 RPM on both my balancer and the COP timing table. At idle my balancer reads 20° which is the what the note suggests when using a crank sensor high data rate ignition. So this checks out and my timing is set correct
This isn't helping my low injector slope, but I'm learning my way around the software and now at least I feel comfortable my timing is set correctly.
To back up a little. I'm using a crank trigger set up. So timing is no longer adjusted by the distributor. To set the initial timing I disable the injectors, then crank the engine over and look for 10°BTDC while cranking. Seems easy enough. However it's incredibly difficult to see the timing mark when the light is flashing so slow (due to cranking not running). Every time the light flashed my eyes can't react quick enough to see the mark well. Probably a me issue. But I verified it again and feel it is 10° but it's just an uneasy feeling as I dont see it clear.
So I figured there must be a way to check it while running against what the PCM is telling it to be. I found the spark table and see at idle with 0 (or very low) load it should be 30°.
So I fired it up and I checked the timing on the balancer against what the spark table says it should be. To check what the PCM is commanding I click the COP tab, or Current Operating Point. The colorful table changes to this black and white table with the current spark advance shown in red. (Engine off while photo taken)
I found that I get descriptions of the various functions by hovering over them with the cursor. I saw this note:
To check that theory I checked the timing with the timing light hooked up and the COP tab checked. I can see the timing move in real time as I raise and lower RPM's on the table and it matches my timing light exactly. I'm seeing 30° at 1500 RPM on both my balancer and the COP timing table. At idle my balancer reads 20° which is the what the note suggests when using a crank sensor high data rate ignition. So this checks out and my timing is set correct
This isn't helping my low injector slope, but I'm learning my way around the software and now at least I feel comfortable my timing is set correctly.
One thing I'm considering as to why my low injector slope may be off is the possibility of damage to my wideband controller due to the melted wires. To rule that out I ordered a replacement. Worst case is I end up with a spare, whice isn't a bad thing.
I want to order some other stuff in advance so I have work for next weekend. I mentioned earlier I had ordered the ProM fuel pressure sensor option. Well, that never came. What's really nice about the sensor is it's a PSID sensor. Meaning it measures fuel pressure and references intake manifold vacuum / pressure. It helps fine tune the injector pulse due to actual fuel pressure and intake conditions. At vacuum fuel will much easier be sucked into the combustion chamber than with 10 psi of pressure. So by knowing the pressure differential it can be much more accurate determining pulse width, specifically in boosted application.
I believe I found out how to make one for my self by some internet sleuthing. I'll be using a Ford sensor for a 99-04 Mustang and a Trick Flow branded Aeromotive adapter.
Has a vacuum barb and pressure transducer built in.
Plugs right into the ProM fuel pressure harness. Just need some -6an ORB to -6an line fittings and some finagling.
Another benefit is I can set my fuel pressure to what the PCM is actually seeing. It will also trigger a low pressure warning if the FP drops below a certain threshold and turn on the CEL. So thats a nice warning to back out of it.
Order in for some AN fittings and odds and ends. Also ordered a new radio. So I should have a few things to keep me busy.
I want to order some other stuff in advance so I have work for next weekend. I mentioned earlier I had ordered the ProM fuel pressure sensor option. Well, that never came. What's really nice about the sensor is it's a PSID sensor. Meaning it measures fuel pressure and references intake manifold vacuum / pressure. It helps fine tune the injector pulse due to actual fuel pressure and intake conditions. At vacuum fuel will much easier be sucked into the combustion chamber than with 10 psi of pressure. So by knowing the pressure differential it can be much more accurate determining pulse width, specifically in boosted application.
I believe I found out how to make one for my self by some internet sleuthing. I'll be using a Ford sensor for a 99-04 Mustang and a Trick Flow branded Aeromotive adapter.
Has a vacuum barb and pressure transducer built in.
Plugs right into the ProM fuel pressure harness. Just need some -6an ORB to -6an line fittings and some finagling.
Another benefit is I can set my fuel pressure to what the PCM is actually seeing. It will also trigger a low pressure warning if the FP drops below a certain threshold and turn on the CEL. So thats a nice warning to back out of it.
Order in for some AN fittings and odds and ends. Also ordered a new radio. So I should have a few things to keep me busy.
Was the injector data preloaded into the computer? I know that correct injector data is the foundation for a calibration and if that is not correct, it can skew other tables and has a snowball effect.
I tend to avoid injectors that do not have accurate data, and typically for GM vehicles use either factory injectors or for big builds recommend Injector Dynamics. For Ford builds i recommend injectors that Decipha has listed on his website, as the injector data is correct.
Have I calibrated with close enough injector data? Sure. Does the car run great! It does. Would a neutral third party look at the calibration and think WTF? Most likely.
So long story short, do you have the correct data in Ford format for your injectors?
I tend to avoid injectors that do not have accurate data, and typically for GM vehicles use either factory injectors or for big builds recommend Injector Dynamics. For Ford builds i recommend injectors that Decipha has listed on his website, as the injector data is correct.
Have I calibrated with close enough injector data? Sure. Does the car run great! It does. Would a neutral third party look at the calibration and think WTF? Most likely.
So long story short, do you have the correct data in Ford format for your injectors?
Thank for the reply. I'm using Deatschwerks injectors. I went with them becasue ProM said they had known good data. I did check what's entered in the tune against my data sheet and it matches. The only conversion I had to do was multiply the DW table by 3600 to go from lb/sec to lb/hr. The software wants lb/hr.
This is the table I'm using. The 39 psi fuel pressure chart.
My low slope should be 60.280 lb/hr. If I use that data I see a 10% correction. Not sure I'm saying that right but the needles are off by 10-11%. I have to change the low slope data to 48.5 to get a 0% correction, however that value is below the high slope which isn't ideal.
So something isn't right. If I monitor in closed loop it corrects just fine and the low slope on each bank are right at 0. So there is enough ability to correct even if I enter the actual data. However thats only when it's in closed loop. I'm assuming it relies on the entered info for cold starts and any condition prior to closed loop. So I'd like to get it right.
The info tabs on software says a vacuum leak is the most likely culprit. So if the wideband controller doesn't fix the issue I'll dig deeper. Any other ideas are certainly welcomed.
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While I'm waiting for parts I decided to do a more thorough check for vacuum leaks. I pulled the intake from the throttle body and capped the TB with a rubber glove. Then I removed the PCV hose from the intake and capped the intake barb. I pulled the hose from the PCV valve and capped it. So now the intake is completely separated from the crankcase / lifter valley.
I hooked the smoke machine up to the TB barb and let it fill. I was able to build enough pressure to fill up the glove and can't find any leaks.
I wiggled all the injectors to check the o rings and really gave everything a good look over. I pulled the line from the oil fill tube and there's no smoke in the crankcase. I would think if a lower intake manifold gasket was leaking it would be leaking smoke into the lifter valley and visible in the oil filler tube.
I also did a similar check of my PCV / catch can set up by capping one end and smoking it. No leaks.
Because some of the vacuum paths have check valves, pressurizing with smoke won't reach them. So....
I pulled the check valve out of the master cylinder. Still was holding vacuum but smoked the master cylinder anyway. No leak.
I pulled the vacuum line from the check valve to the cruise control vacuum can and smoked it. No leaks from the cruise control lines or vacuum canister.
I pulled the climate control vacuum lines from the check valve on the firewall and smoked the vacuum ball in fender well and also the line going into the car for the blend doors and control. No smoke in the car.
I reassembled everything and then smoked the intake from engine through Vortech and oil seperator to MAF. No unmetered air leaks.
Just to rule out the catch can, I bypassed it and fired it up. There's no change in the low slope.
I'm not seeing how I could have a vacuum leak after this. If I'm missing something lemme know.
I hooked the smoke machine up to the TB barb and let it fill. I was able to build enough pressure to fill up the glove and can't find any leaks.
I wiggled all the injectors to check the o rings and really gave everything a good look over. I pulled the line from the oil fill tube and there's no smoke in the crankcase. I would think if a lower intake manifold gasket was leaking it would be leaking smoke into the lifter valley and visible in the oil filler tube.
I also did a similar check of my PCV / catch can set up by capping one end and smoking it. No leaks.
Because some of the vacuum paths have check valves, pressurizing with smoke won't reach them. So....
I pulled the check valve out of the master cylinder. Still was holding vacuum but smoked the master cylinder anyway. No leak.
I pulled the vacuum line from the check valve to the cruise control vacuum can and smoked it. No leaks from the cruise control lines or vacuum canister.
I pulled the climate control vacuum lines from the check valve on the firewall and smoked the vacuum ball in fender well and also the line going into the car for the blend doors and control. No smoke in the car.
I reassembled everything and then smoked the intake from engine through Vortech and oil seperator to MAF. No unmetered air leaks.
Just to rule out the catch can, I bypassed it and fired it up. There's no change in the low slope.
I'm not seeing how I could have a vacuum leak after this. If I'm missing something lemme know.
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gkomo
now i can hopefully expect to receive the shaft
That's possible. I didn't get these ones flowed. I did get the last set independently tested like @gkomo mentioned. These ones came with a specific flow sheet and each injector was stamped with it's actual flow. But... anything can happen. I think I'll try some other things first. But yeah.... it's a good thought.
I did notice my DW injector data that I posted above has something curious. The offset voltage for 13v and 14v shows the same .9134. I don't think that seems right. My tune has a different number in the 14v cell which seems more in line. But there is a discrepancy. I emailed DW for the correct info. We'll see if it matches what is entered in my tune.
As far as the wideband controller that seems really possible something got buggered due to the melted wires. The left one stopped working and pegged lean. To see if the issue was with the wideband controller or PCM I swapped the left and right leads (not knowing the wiring melted to the inside of the floorpan). So both sides of the controller got exposed to that shorted out mess of wiring. I should be able to get that installed this weekend and rule it out.
One thing that is sort of odd with the ProM is how it uses an outboard 3rd party wideband controller. Most engine management setups do that all in the PCM and have a wideband wired directly to it. Every brand wideband controller has a different slope and voltage characteristic. So it's important the tune matches the particular wideband controller style. I was told the PCM its set up for my Zeitronix controller slope, but it's something I need to verify. So I'll dig around in the software for that and make sure it matches exactly.
Also thinking I should check my canister purge. I did smoke test it. But I didn't check to see if it was being incorrectly opened by the PCM and causing a leak when it running. Not probable but easy to test so I'll check that.
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I heard back from DW. The injector data on their website for the voltage offset at 14v and 15v is incorrect. What's entered in my tune doesn't match it. I think what I'll do next is rename my current tune as "original tune". This way I'll always have the original to go back to. It's nice I can save several tunes in the PCM then just select which ever one I want to currently load.
I'll copy this tune and rename it something else. I'll make the fuel injector data changes in the new tune and save it.
I have alot of "leads" to to work on this weekend. Hopefully one of them pans out.
I'll copy this tune and rename it something else. I'll make the fuel injector data changes in the new tune and save it.
I have alot of "leads" to to work on this weekend. Hopefully one of them pans out.
gkomo
now i can hopefully expect to receive the shaft
lol did they say why their injector data was incorrect? Seems kind of like a big deal if lots of people are in your shoes.
It's sort of weird. I accessed the tuning info from the injector product page-> technical resources-> tuning data. That table is outdated. However if I go straight to tuning data from the main menu and enter the injector part number it brings up a different table. This is the correct table.
The difference is the voltage offset for 13v and 14v. Also the units of measure for flow rate breakpoint is correctly labled lb rather than lb/sec like my original table. Interestingly enough the data ProM entered in tune for those cells doesn't match either table lol.
This might amount to something as the 14v cell is where I'd be at idle. I'm not really sure how much of a difference those values will make but I'm sort of excited to have at least found a discrepancy and now have the correct info to enter.
I will say Deatschwerks was easy to get in touch with. I just called them after the email. It's easier that way. They are based in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma and to the best of my knowledge make all the injectors there. So at least I wasn't transfered to some foreign island call center with an accent so thick I can't understand anything. They were helpful. Not sure why there is that old chart available though.
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gkomo
now i can hopefully expect to receive the shaft
Assuming the OP and his dealings with the Pro-M system and tuning and all that.
Oh I didn't even look back to see who the op was but I see it's actually Nicholas but at first I thought it was you lol. I haven't updated my thread but I'm headed to the tuner on Thursday trailering it an hour and 45 minutes. I will probably update it later tonight if I remember
Hey guys. Been a while. I haven't been doing much on the car. It's winter here and an unusually cold one. Pretty soon the weather will break and I'll get back at it.
Regarding the ProM install, I left off with an issue where the wideband guage was reading different than the computer. The way this is set up a wideband sensor is connected to the controller. Then the controller sends the reading to the guage display and also an output signal to the computer. The computer needs to be calibrated to this reading because all wideband controllers have a slightly different 1-5v slope. When my guage reads 14.7, the computer is reading lean. If I richen up the tune to get the reading in the computer correct, then the guage reads rich. It also exhibits all the signs of running rich. So i believe the guage is displaying the correct info.
Just to be sure, I've tried several new controllers, wideband sensors, and replaced the wiring several times.
When I ordered the ProM kit I asked Chris Richards to set the computer up for the widebands I was using. This is non user adjustable. Only ProM can access that area of the tune and change it. I asked him several times if he could confirm the calibration and he won't. I asked if he could provide what was entered in the computer so I could adjust the calibration in the wideband controller (which i can access and adjust) but he won't. He just kept saying things like i have a vacuum leak, or other engine problem and wouldn't give me the info I was asking for. I don’t understand the reasoning here. Even if I did have a vacuum leak the engine management and wideband guage should match and both be lean. The fact they are both giving different reading at the same time is pretty obvious something isn't calibrated correctly.
It doesn't much matter. They are officially out of business now and unavailable to contact.
So when I get back to it I'll see if I can play around with the calibration of the widebamd controller and match it. I have a few ideas. Or just order a Holley TermX.
One way or the other it's gonna be tearing up the streets this summer!
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