2011 V6s are gonna piss me off I know it

mustang50v8 said:

i think the issue here is that puma1552 just doesnt "get" the automotive industry. i will try to bullet point it for him.

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I "get" the industry just fine. I've been around the block more than a time or two.

1. if people didnt buy new cars there would be no used cars.
this is kind of a no brainier. also tons of people like buying new cars because for them its not a waste of money. what are you getting for your 30k v6? well a car with no mileage that has never been beat on, and a fantastic new car warranty. this may be a surprise to you but MOST people barely know how to change a flat tire let alone do an oil change. so if something breaks they can take it back and get it fixed for free...and many times with a loaner car while its broken! this also happens to be a good sales tactic. you get to ride in a shiny new model with more cool stuff while your older model gets worked on.

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Obviously. What does this have to do with anything I said? Please don't talk to me like I've never owned a new or nearly new car, or tell me how those "warranty things" work. Again, this has nothing to do with anything I said. $30k for a V6 Mustang is a waste of money. It's just as big a waste of money as a $30k Chevy Malibu. Some cars sink faster than others, surely you understand that? Remember all those crappy early 2000s Cavaliers people paid $16k+ for? Within two years they were hitting lots for $5k, and that's after the dealer raped the person on the trade. Those cars lost 70% of their value within two years--70% of their retail value, more when you consider trade-in value. Some cars are simply worse buys than others new, a V6 Mustang is one of those. That's completely independent of whether or not someone wants a new car with a warranty and zero miles, that doesn't change the facts.

2. quality costs money.
for many years the quality of the mustang has been somewhat of a downfall. it would get ridiculed in every review about it. ford has stepped it up greatly in that department and as such, price goes up. let me ask you a question though. what about the v6 car specifically is lower quality? and you cant say the engine. it certainly isnt the build materials. i am going to go out on a limb and say the material quality is the same between the v6 and the GT. the dashboards are the same, the seat materials are the same (the GT ones being more sport oriented and the V6 being more comfort oriented) but really the only differences are the bells and whistles" and you can certainly get a GT with less options or "build quality" as you make is sound,than a v6. also, many car manufacturers have realized that the rental car industry plays a big part in car sales. rental fleets get base model cars, and if you walk away from a rental thinking "hey that car was actually pretty nice" they might consider getting one on their next purchase.

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Obviously, nobody said the cars had lower quality materials, I agree, it's just the opposite. The interiors of the new Mustangs are worlds better than those in the SN95s, that's to be expected. Quality costs money, but only to a certain extent; quality increases naturally as a function of time and technology, so even at the same price point (also accounting for inflation), I'd expect a 2011 Mustang to have a better quality interior than a 1995 Mustang, without having to pay more for it as technology advances and becomes more mainstream. The 2011 Mustang quality compared to the technology available today is on par with the 1995 Mustang interior quality compared to the technology available at that time. It's just like computers. A $3000 computer today buys a lot better computer than a $3000 computer did in 1995. Technologies and build quality procedures mature, and those trickle down at the same price points as time goes on.

3. inflation(this one is actually kind of a biggy)
A 2004 Grand Cherokee Limited V8 was a 40k truck new in 2004. a new Limited costs 50+. things cost more over time. period.

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Right, and my dad's Eddie Bauer Expo was a $40k truck in 2000. Inflation tends to outrun cost of living increases and raises for many people, keep that in mind as well. Companies always clamp down, pull the budget excuse, lay people off, etc. etc. I don't see too many companies handing out more than 3-4% raises annually, but I know in chemical engineering a lot of companies are scaling back to every 18 months for reviews/raises. I know more than a few people who've been working three years for major companies (think Exxon, Dow, etc.) who just now are getting their first raises, and they are in the 3% range. At that rate inflation will outrun them.

4. the base v6 keeps our nice GT's and Cobra's in production
look at sales figures, if the v6 didnt exist there would be no GT's it just wouldnt be profitable for ford to keep it going.

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Again, this is obvious, and also has basically nothing to do with why I think the V6 sucks. It's obvious that most sales, be it Camaro/Charger/Challenger/Mustang are going to be V6 sales. Always has been. The V6 sales just fund the development of the higher, more desirable models. This is no secret, never has been. That's basically public info.

5. insurance
you are correct that the v6 has a bunch of kids driving them, and many of them would love a gt or cobra. but the fact is that insurance costs a ton for young drivers on the v8 cars. so its not the gas mileage that is stopping them.

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Well, if you can buy a $30k car but can't afford the insurance, what does that say? Those are the same people who can't afford their house, or the same people who always drive broken BMWs because they can't afford the Inspection I/II that are due every so many miles. If you can afford a $500 payment but not the extra dosh for the insurance bill, it means you are living above your means and money is obviously stretched.

I get it just fine, thanks. I also understand how to afford what I own, which is more than can be said for a lot of the people on both this forum and others when you search around google looking for threads on prices paid. It's easy to get wrapped up in a new car, I know. They are nice, I've been there. It's also very easy to make a poor decision just to be the guy in the neighborhood with something new. For the record, I'm not one of those misers sitting on $5M who drives a $3 car and lives in a $5 house. I have absolutely nothing against new cars, not at all. But the car has to be worth the price paid to me, looking long term accounting for my plans with the car, resale, and overall value of what I get.

What I see is people who are getting into a Mustang at any cost, even if it means rolling negative equity into another upside-down loan. It's easy to say "Oh yeah, well inflation makes the Mustang so expensive" but obviously there's more to it, because a lot of people can't really afford what they are buying. Takes close to $10k down to not be upside down the day you drive it off the lot. So either the cars just have kind of inflated pricing, or inflation is starting to really outrun the cost of living increases and raises people receive.

Point is, the cars weren't always German money. They are now. Save me the build quality excuse, a German car still outshines a Mustang/Camaro in terms of materials and build quality, etc.

Look, I don't like the V6 cars and I think they are way too overpriced when you look at what else is out there, and resale value compared to what else is out there. I'll never own one, and neither will a lot of other people. Get over it, you can't change my opinion. Don't tell me I don't "get" it just because I think a V6 Mustang is as "ghey" as half the other people on this site. A V6 Camaro is equally "ghey."

i was going to write out a long response to you puma1552, but in the end i gave up because you are out of touch with reality how things work. OR you are just trolling the forums.

either way, im tired of your arguing with everyone's reasoning because you refuse to understand the appeal of the V6 to some people. from this point on i am adding you to my ignore list. even if you quote my post and reply to it i will not see it. AND i will never have to be burdened by diarrhea that comes out of your brain ever again.

puma1552 said:

I "get" the industry just fine. I've been around the block more than a time or two.

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Really? You paid way too much, not common for somebody that has been around the block.

http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/831992-just-picked-up-black-black-98-gt.html

Paid too much according to who? Dealer wanted $10k and I got it for $7800, which is only $600 over book. Some of us are willing to pay a tad more for a mint car.

Yeah, I could have bought a ****box for $5k, but it would've been a ****box. I also don't just get whichever one is the best deal just to be cheap, I like certain options

But yeah, on the internet everyone gets cars for $5000+ below book all day long. *rolleyes*

puma1552 said:

Paid too much according to who? Dealer wanted $10k and I got it for $7800, which is only $600 over book. Some of us are willing to pay a tad more for a mint car.

Yeah, I could have bought a ****box for $5k, but it would've been a ****box. I also don't just get whichever one is the best deal just to be cheap, I like certain options

But yeah, on the internet everyone gets cars for $5000+ below book all day long. *rolleyes* and will pay for them.

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I really don't know what to tell you. I paid half of what you did for the same car 4-5 years ago(3rd 96-98gt). Wasn't a ****box.

Just funny that you seem to know everything, have been around the block, etc... Welcome, and yes, I'm still 17.

puma1552 said:

Paid too much according to who? Dealer wanted $10k and I got it for $7800, which is only $600 over book. Some of us are willing to pay a tad more for a mint car..

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I don't mean to butt in, but you really did overpay for that car. As long as you're happy with the purchase than obviously that's what matters. However, $8K for a stock 98 GT with 80K miles is retarded.

I paid $7500 for my 02 with 50,000 miles and its a lot faster and just as clean (if not cleaner) as your 98. Just sayin....

Winters98GT said:

I really don't know what to tell you. I paid half of what you did for the same car 4-5 years ago(3rd 96-98gt). Wasn't a ****box.

Just funny that you seem to know everything, have been around the block, etc... Welcome, and yes, I'm still 17.

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You're telling me you bought an 8 year old Mustang GT for $3900 bucks and it wasn't a pile? With all due respect, I call complete BS.

Nightfire said:

I don't mean to butt in, but you really did overpay for that car. As long as you're happy with the purchase than obviously that's what matters. However, $8K for a stock 98 GT with 80K miles is retarded.

I paid $7500 for my 02 with 50,000 miles and its a lot faster and just as clean (if not cleaner) as your 98. Just sayin....

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Right, but your car isn't what I wanted. FYI, stock cars are worth more than modified ones, and the last thing I wanted was someone else's modified problem with mods I may or may not have wanted.

While I think it's incredibly childish to bring up my thread in a discussion about new V6 Mustangs, as it has zero relevance to this discussion, perhaps I should remind you guys of a few things:

--I live in Japan, and bought the car from overseas. Not a lot of dealers were willing to deal with that. I needed a dealer willing to work with me. My dealer turned out to be more incompetent than I expected, but they did work with me and get the car in my driveway and in my name, from out of state, and while I'm 7,000 miles away. Living in Japan also basically rules out private sellers, I don't blame them for not wanting to send a title to me and trust that I'll transfer it over. I know when I sell a car, I make the guy I transfer it to go to the DMV with me to make sure he actually does transfer it so it's no longer my legal responsibility. I wouldn't deal with an overseas buyer as a private seller, nor would I expect one to deal with me. Obviously private sellers are cheaper, but I was basically limited to dealers. I also avoided a private seller to protect myself, because who's to say that they will send me the title after I send them the money? No guarantee there.

--I needed the car shipped. Again, some dealers weren't willing to bother doing this, even without mentioning I was overseas. I found a black '98 GT, 30k miles, all original, mint, in Alabama. Dealer wanted $10k before negotiation. Before even bringing that up, I asked about shipping. They told me I'd have to arrange it on my own, that they don't/won't work with me on that. Screw that, they want the sale, they can call a transport truck and arrange delivery.

--That car wasn't really what I wanted. Cloth seats, 16" wheels, no Mach 460. I wanted leather, 17" wheels, and Mach. They weren't going to drop their price from $10k to $5k. I highly doubt they would've went down to $7k.

--Again, even if I had wanted that car, it would've cost about $1000 to ship it. Same can be said for the few other cars I liked. Always in California, or in the south.

--I live in the north. We ALWAYS pay more for clean cars, end of story. The cheapness of cars in the south/west is negated by expensive shipping costs to the north. Shipping is also a bit of a hassle as it is, price aside.

--The car I bought is the car I wanted. Black/black, MINT, 17s, leather, 5-speed, 460. 2-owners, non-abused unmolested car. Not a single ding or scratch on it. This is also going to be a slightly more desirable Mustang than say, a Forest Green Automatic, and easy as pie to sell later. Gonna have to pay a little more.

--Once you factor tax savings on the lower price compared to the $10k the dealer wanted, I saved over $2,000 from what the dealer was asking. That's 20%. Dealers aren't going to give their cars away, and that was after a week of negotiating.

--That car happened to be in Iowa, just 300 miles away. This means it didn't cost me $1000 to ship it. It was exactly what I wanted, at a dealer willing to work with me, and literally a straight shot off the highway passing right through St. Paul. It was kind of a no-brainer.

Keep in mind, I had a lot more constraints on my purchase than someone living in the US. I did pretty damn good to get it from a dealer for $7800 with exactly what I wanted, and mint. I was willing to pay a slight premium to get exactly what I wanted in terms of color and options, and most importantly condition.

But as has been said, on the internet everyone pays some ridiculously low price for their car, and claims up and down it's super clean and mint. Sorry, I don't always buy that. Look around, here's what's currently on Autotrader, completely ignoring the $30k cars:

98 GT, 28k miles:

Cars for Sale: 1998 Ford Mustang GT in Willowbrook, IL 60527: Coupe Details - 290483705 - AutoTrader.com

98 GT, automatic, cloth, same miles, badly stained carpet, slightly warped rear bumper, $10k:

Cars for Sale: 1998 Ford Mustang GT Coupe in Waterbury, CT 06708: Coupe Details - 295435669 - AutoTrader.com

98 GT, 140k miles, $9k:

Cars for Sale: 1998 Ford Mustang GT in Milwaukee, OR 97267: Coupe Details - 297425178 - AutoTrader.com

98 GT, same mileage, it's a beauty but it's an auto with tan interior, and in California:

Cars for Sale: 1998 Ford Mustang GT in Sacramento, CA 95815: Coupe Details - 295086983 - AutoTrader.com

97 GT, 46k miles but tan interior, auto, permamark on the trunk lid from a dealer sticker, and missing a piece of ugly side trim, $8k:

Cars for Sale: 1997 Ford Mustang GT in Selden, NY 11784: Coupe Details - 295024362 - AutoTrader.com

98 GT, 74k miles, passenger door has a bad paint match, so probably hit on the side, and wires hanging out of the dash and pep boys pedals, $7350. Rest of the paint is difficult to assess. Condition just deteriorates from here at this price point:

Cars for Sale: 1998 Ford Mustang GT in New Philadelphia, OH 44663: Coupe Details - 294634728 - AutoTrader.com

See where I'm going with this? There are 50 more where those came from. I'm not sure where people are getting these $3k-$6k mint SN 95s with the options I've listed, I'd like to see some, because a nationwide search doesn't yield any. There isn't anything mint going below that, and even the above aren't really mint for the most part. Did I pay more according to some people on the internet? Maybe, but I certainly didn't pay out of line compared to what the rest of the cars are being listed at in reality. I certainly could've done a lot worse, but I don't really see where I could've done much better given what's currently on Autotrader, let alone with the constraints I had.

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Back on topic--All I've maintained is that a $30k V6 Mustang isn't worth it, IMO, and I've got people jumping down my throat about it as if to say I can't dare say a bad thing about Ford or have a differing opinion. Hell, I even agreed with the one guy on a couple points and he put me on ignore over a disagreement on the perceived value of a new Mustang? Instead of having a discussion, or addressing any of my points, he decides instead to just put me on ignore. At least I rationalized my thoughts as to why. If you disagree, that's fine, but at least have a civilized discussion about it rather than calling me a troll or putting me on ignore.