300hp N/A v6, how to.

fazm83 · Jul 20, 2005

I also think it is a good idea to make a new thread just for this, because its popping up in many other threads.

First off, are we talkin bout makin 300 at the wheels, or 300hp at the crank? (255rwhp+/-)

Jenns01TA · Jul 20, 2005

Thanks faz....

I would think 300 rwhp. That would mean we would need to factor in parastatic drivetrain loss on both Manual and Auto.

Would you like to do the math, my friend? Should we use 10-12 for Manual and 13-15 for auto. And, I am wondering if the 2 piece driveshaft with U-joint will need to factor in also?

I welcome Makoto to join in on this. After reading some of his posts on the Nissan and the other forums he is on, he has some good fundamental engineering ideas that could be applied to the V-6.

Jenn

fazm83 · Jul 20, 2005

I would think we would be around 14 on the manual and like 17 on the auto.

so thats 349 at the flywheel for the manual and bout 361/362 for an auto.

That seems pretty extreme lol.

Lets make a list of what we know we can do to these.
P&P heads (30hp)
cams (15hp)
headers (10hp)
intake (8hp)
exhaust (9hp)
hi flo/no cats. (5-10hp)
tune (10hp)
boring cylinder (no clue, all depends on how much i guess, maybe 30?)
plugs, wires, possible MSD coil in future. (5-10hp)
stroker kit? (upwards of 30hp im sure)
larger injectors? (10hp)
throttle body (5-10hp)
cant do anything to the intake manifold i am assuming because it is plastic.

Do you think all of that is worth 130rwhp or more? (i get a max of 182)

I'm sure if you wanted to replace all of the internals too you could probably run some radical compression ratio.

fazm83 · Jul 20, 2005

wow, if you could get another 180hp at the wheels, thats like 360 total to the ground. That would be one crazy N/A 4.0 v6 lol. With that setup you should be capable of running low 12s all day long. (assuming that a gt with 360rwhp could run 12.4 easily because i have seen ones with 305rwhp run 12.7, and the v6 weighs couple hundred lbs less). Do this and then lose a hundred or two lbs by shedding your car of unnecessary weight, and you might be a 11.99 car on a perfect day.

Jenns01TA · Jul 20, 2005

fazm83 said:
wow, if you could get another 180hp at the wheels, thats like 360 total to the ground. That would be one crazy N/A 4.0 v6 lol. With that setup you should be capable of running low 12s all day long. (assuming that a gt with 360rwhp could run 12.4 easily because i have seen ones with 305rwhp run 12.7, and the v6 weighs couple hundred lbs less). Do this and then lose a hundred or two lbs by shedding your car of unnecessary weight, and you might be a 11.99 car on a perfect day.

It is late and I need to get to sleep. To keep this in a somewhat "controlled" setting, let's make sure that we are running hypothetical guesstimates on the HP/TQ figures per part to the low end and that we do a little reseach for cost. Let's make the cost comparison to a blown V-6 utilizing a Whipple twin-screw running around $5,500. Are we retaining the "Daily Driver" aspect of our "Phantom N/A Stang"?

The intake manfold is plastic. But, if we take the same design that is on the new 3-V and remachine the ports so that they they are long and slender rather than the round style we are used to, we can achieve a similar intake port design. Mapping port design to the 3-V intake manifold, but altering specification to the 2-V V-6. Cost... If my pop was alive he could give me an estimate. Based on my time in the shop with him. 2 hour job at about $140/hour. Not sure of today's rates though and I no longer have any of the lathes or the mills. Lost them when dad died and the business was sold.

Weight reduction can be achieved via seat deletes, accessory reduction, material change outs, lighter wheels that are still spec, replacement of suspension components to a lighter more durable material (carbon fiber okay with you? LOL Just kidding), etc.

Off to bed with dreams of a 300HP V-6 Stang.

Jennifer

fazm83 · Jul 20, 2005

Ok, so low guess on the increases would be around 110 120?

AvalancheSVT · Jul 20, 2005

squeezing 100hp with NA mods is totally doable.

you need to find aftermarket parts. heads, cam, TB. you have a composite intkae, i think so that's good.

increase intake, increase exhuast, increase ignition, bump up the timing, and then tune all of it. in theory that's good for 100hp.

the cam and head choice can affect things tremendously. thats what you need to focus on.

RedCoupe92 · Jul 20, 2005

I agree with Makoto, I would concentrate on the heads and cam. this is where most of the power will come from. however, you will need to factor in exhaust and possibly ignition, but the factory ignition should be ok, even up to 300+ hp, but it will be expensive, no matter what. then of course, once you get to the 300+ hp factor, you will then need to start worrying about drivetrain issues, so that's more money. good luck, and keep this post going, i am curious to see just what you guys can come up with for the v-6.

AvalancheSVT · Jul 20, 2005

oh yeah and due to the fact that you will need a good diff you guys oughta look into GT axles pronto. strength + LSD = good deal.

kevins05v-6 · Jul 20, 2005

there is stuff for the 4.0liter, here is a link to the ranger forum, i am justtoo lazy to search through it:
http://www.rangerpowersports.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11

MSP · Jul 20, 2005

Nice job Fazm83.. I'll check the price for the heads later.. I have not read all the replies yet, but have we yet discussed the official Ford V6 SOHC 4.0 book yet? Where can it be acquired?

Also, the type of CAM and head components used on our specific engine?

MSP · Jul 20, 2005

I love this thread already!! LOL!! Damn, I am really starting to get attached to Jenn!! LOL!!

Also, what I am seriously considering is a quick head work job.. It is entirely possible that some P&P on the heads, in conjunction with an SCT2 tune will do some tremendous things to our car.. I am almost convinced some good head work and the TUNE could get us 75HP to the rear wheels pronto.. Figuring the head work at around $300 bucks(I have not checked yet), do you think that in conjunction with a tune could really raise some eyebrows? You know, this is the easiest and quickest mod we can all do ASAP!! Is 75HP realistic for those of us who have already done exhaust work?

fazm83 · Jul 20, 2005

I think good head work would actually be closer to the $800 range. I have seen P&P jobs for the 3v 4.6 heads range between $680 and $1300.

I agree you could get a lot more air flowing that way, but i dont know if the fuel system on the 4.0 is up to par. Might need some larger injectors to reach your goal.

As far as numbers go, i dont remember where, but i believe a starge 3 P&P on the 3v heads is good for like 63rwhp.

Jenns01TA · Jul 20, 2005

Agreed,

P&P ports, Injector increase could be redesigned if unavailable aftermarket from http://www.rceng.com/prices.htm for about $175.00. With increased injector flow, we would need a new throttle body. I would love to get past this Mother Farkin DBW technology.

CAMS - I have always like COMPCAMS.

If we are all serious about this..anyone have enough money to buy simulation software from ProRacing Sim, LLC?

http://www.proracingsim.com/

I unfortunately have to go back to work. More later...

Jenn

fazm83 · Jul 20, 2005

Jenn, what kind of power increase do you think is available through more aggressive cams?

brodude2002 · Jul 20, 2005

for cams, Blow By racing has developed cams for the GT and run for about 800-900. the guy said that the cams for the V6 would be around 600-700 for both. so once they start to sell these cams, we can see the difference in performance on the GT's and from that get an estimated performance increase for the V6. im guessing cams+heads+tune would take us 120+hp to the wheels, if not more.

dont forget tires. wider better tires will deffinatley help get all that hp and torque to ground for some good track times.

MSP · Jul 20, 2005

The headshop went out of business! So I'll need to find another source for P&P work..

vb101 · Jul 20, 2005

There is a company called Super Six Motorsports that has ported heads and throttle body for the 4.0L V6, though I don't think they have any cams or intakes for it yet. I know from their web site that the 3.8L V6 used in earlier Mustangs with ported heads & intake and cam would net 90hp for about $2200. I'm sure that a comparable product will be coming out for the 4.0L, they already have the ported heads and new half-shafted and ported 65mm throttle body. I'm sure cams & intake will be in the not too distant future. If Super Six Motorsports has 4.0L specific mods then other companies will likely follow. They don't state whether the hp gains are at the crank or the rear wheels, I will assume it's at the crank. 90hp at the crank is not bad IMOO. Your typical super charger running 8-9 lbs of boost will only give you about 100-110 hp at the crank.

My ambition is to get a 300hp V6, that's at the crank and not rear wheels, which I think will not bee too difficult to achieve for a cost of under $3000. Anything over that would be a bonus but would probably require upgrading the drive train. That would be a project for much later.

AvalancheSVT · Jul 20, 2005

vb101 said:
My ambition is to get a 300hp V6, that's at the crank and not rear wheels, which I think will not bee too difficult to achieve for a cost of under $3000. Anything over that would be a bonus but would probably require upgrading the drive train. That would be a project for much later.

i'd say the axle would be the first to go BUT you need an LSD anyhow. there's a reason the 4.0 rangers come with 8.8" axles in the rear instead of 7.5. ford really dropped the ball here, i bet future V6's have the 8.8 with LSD option.

vb101 · Jul 20, 2005

MakotoS13 said:
i'd say the axle would be the first to go BUT you need an LSD anyhow. there's a reason the 4.0 rangers come with 8.8" axles in the rear instead of 7.5. ford really dropped the ball here, i bet future V6's have the 8.8 with LSD option.

I agree that there really should have been an 8.8" in the V6's. Ford's just too cheap I guess.

The 7.5 axle is why I'm planning on not going over the 300hp level for for a long while. 300 horses for a N/A V6 would be nice.

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